Xl1 and Premiere: Recording at 29.95

January 9th, 2002, 03:13 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Mitchell : Robin,

You said that the last time your camera came back from Canon it was broken. The fact is the that when you bought your camera from Canon your camera was broken. Your camera is recording at an off sampling rate instead of a true 48000 kHz. You've proved that several times over with all of your testing. If you play back a tape that you've recorded in your XL-1 in any other camera or deck, it will capture at the 29.96. If you play a tape on your XL-1 that you've recorded in any other DV device, it will capture at 29.97. You're in serious denial. Premiere bases it's frame rate count on the sampling rate of the video clip. Granted, probably not the best thought out design. But, if your camera was doing things correctly to begin with, you wouldn't be having this problem.

If the trained monkeys at Canon broke your camera broke your camera the last time you sent it in, I'm confused about why you continue to have so much faith in their ability to give good technical advice.

As for the tip for using Scenalyzer, that came directly from this forum. Obviously Adobe monitors this forum looking for ways to help folks like you. Can you say that about Canon?

- Jack -->>>

January 9th, 2002, 03:23 PM

The Canon XL-1 audio sampling rate has been reported by people smarter than I as being 48.006 and that is what causes the drift on long clips.

The 29.97 frame rate came along with the compatibility issue when color TV came out. The "drop frame" actually adjusts the time code using a set formula. There are a number of good explanations of this on the web. Do a Google.

It's not even an issue with me any more. Scenalyzer Live solved the problem and it's a darn good capture utility with superb machine control and analog capture to boot.

...and yes, the old RGB color wheel camera did make that first trip to the moon. Remember the three color plastic sheets that you pasted over the B&W tv screen to get "color"?

I, too, am old.

Vic Owen · January 9th, 2002, 04:15 PM

Wow! That's fascinating...I wasn't aware of that. As I recall, it wasn't compatible with B&W, so rejected. I can remember promos mentioning "RCA Compatible Color" or something like that. I was born in the early 40s, so I must have been close to diapers then, as well. (Some would say we're close now!)

Vic

Ozzie Alfonso · January 9th, 2002, 05:07 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Vic Owen : Wow! That's fascinating...I wasn't aware of that. As I recall, it wasn't compatible with B&W, so rejected. I can remember promos mentioning "RCA Compatible Color" or something like that. I was born in the early 40s, so I must have been close to diapers then, as well. (Some would say we're close now!) Vic -->>>

LOL! Good to see another "old foggie" interested in new toys. I've never outgrown them. My 14 year old son keeps reminding me of that. By the way, I was born right smack in the middle of the 40s, and I hope I'm still a long way from diapers.

Bill Ravens · January 9th, 2002, 08:37 PM

I beg your pardon. I was born in 1948...and not an "old foggie" yet. Maybe it's those three extra years ya got on me, Ozzie.....LOL

Ozzie Alfonso · January 9th, 2002, 10:24 PM

Well, to quote you pal: "...I was born in the early 40s" Humm... so you work for the FAA hey? Are you one of those guys who keeps asking "you're cleared to where?" ;-)

Sorry to everyone but this has gone waaay off topic.

So how about that XL-1S? By the way, I'm buying one from ZGC. Christine put together a package that can't be found anywhere else. A plug but an honest one. It's good to find a store that really cares about the products they sell and how their customers will use them. I haven't found any other retailer that will sell you the system configured the way you want it.

After reading all the new and improved specs of the XL-1S I think it's coming very close to what I've been used to. The only thing lacking is SMPTE time code. A big lack in my opinion. I've heard the reason for not using SMPTE code is not so much hardware (although that alone would ad to the cost) but the license fee Canon would need to pay SMPTE. That would put the camera into a whole other price bracket. But the 1S claims to have SMPTE bars, so I don't know what the real story is.

My feeble attempt to abide by Chris' rules.

Vic Owen · January 9th, 2002, 10:34 PM

Actually, fairly close. I manage the field office that's responsible for the operation of the FAA air traffic systems at Sea-Tac. But, you're right -- I'd better save this stuff for the bio section (Sorry, Chris!) I'll have to say, though, this is an enjoyable community over here in land of the wierd looking camera!

Vic

<<<-- Originally posted by ozziealfonso : Well, to quote you pal: "...I was born in the early 40s" Humm... so you work for the FAA hey? Are you one of those guys who keeps asking "you're cleared to where?" ;-)

Sorry to everyone but this has gone waaay off topic.

Robin Greenidge · January 10th, 2002, 08:34 AM

Dave, I want to issue a challenge to you(and to Jack M.). Please give the Canon Service Center a call and tell them that your Xl1 is recording at a sampling rate of 48.006 Khz and you need a new one that is recording at 48.000Khz and give me some feedback on what they say.
Please point me in the direction of your information that you have concerning the sampling rate problem.

Brad_DeWees · January 18th, 2002, 02:46 PM

I got it back from Canon with an Adobe KB article about correcting audio sync problems. It didn't help, but getting sclive from Scenalyzer.com did.
-Brad

Robin Greenidge · January 18th, 2002, 03:34 PM

Hi Brad, same result here. That was the first thing they did. My camera is right now back at Canon and they have ordered a main bd (circuit board) for it from Japan. Unfortunately I (or they) do not know when I will be seeing my camera again since the part has not yet arrived. When It comes back I will let you know if it works correctly or not. But like you I have purchased Scanalyzer and I am capturing everything with it and it all is coming in at 29.97 using my FireWire card. Gob bless the person who wrote that code!
If you want some info on the 48Khz issue go to www.adamwilt.com

Brad_DeWees · January 18th, 2002, 03:47 PM

Hmm, good reading Robin. I spent alot of time searching prior to sending in the camera and never came across that. I take it you sent it back to have them fix the audio problem, or was there some other gremlin at work?
-Brad

Robin Greenidge · January 18th, 2002, 03:53 PM

It all stemmed from the audio sync issue. This is the fourth time at their repair depot. Hopefully the main board replacement will fix it. I emailed them and I have been invited to escalate the request if the results on this repair are not satisfactory.
Have a good weekend!

Chris Hurd · January 18th, 2002, 04:46 PM

Where is your camera, Irvine CA or Jamesburg NJ?

Robin Greenidge · January 21st, 2002, 08:39 AM

Jamesburg...are there differences?

Edward Troxel · January 21st, 2002, 03:45 PM

I have had the same results with Scenalyzer. I don't understand how a $33.00 program is able to capture from the XL-1 in perfect sync while this is a problem with Cinestream, Premiere and FCP. One would think that if one program could compensate correctly, they all should be able to compensate similarly.

January 9th, 2002, 05:07 PM	#49
Ozzie Alfonso Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: New York, NY Posts: 355	<<<-- Originally posted by Vic Owen : Wow! That's fascinating...I wasn't aware of that. As I recall, it wasn't compatible with B&W, so rejected. I can remember promos mentioning "RCA Compatible Color" or something like that. I was born in the early 40s, so I must have been close to diapers then, as well. (Some would say we're close now!) Vic -->>> LOL! Good to see another "old foggie" interested in new toys. I've never outgrown them. My 14 year old son keeps reminding me of that. By the way, I was born right smack in the middle of the 40s, and I hope I'm still a long way from diapers. __________________ *Ozzie Alfonso* www.ozziealfonso.com

January 9th, 2002, 10:24 PM	#51
Ozzie Alfonso Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: New York, NY Posts: 355	Well, to quote you pal: "...I was born in the early 40s" Humm... so you work for the FAA hey? Are you one of those guys who keeps asking "you're cleared to where?" ;-) Sorry to everyone but this has gone waaay off topic. So how about that XL-1S? By the way, I'm buying one from ZGC. Christine put together a package that can't be found anywhere else. A plug but an honest one. It's good to find a store that really cares about the products they sell and how their customers will use them. I haven't found any other retailer that will sell you the system configured the way you want it. After reading all the new and improved specs of the XL-1S I think it's coming very close to what I've been used to. The only thing lacking is SMPTE time code. A big lack in my opinion. I've heard the reason for not using SMPTE code is not so much hardware (although that alone would ad to the cost) but the license fee Canon would need to pay SMPTE. That would put the camera into a whole other price bracket. But the 1S claims to have SMPTE bars, so I don't know what the real story is. My feeble attempt to abide by Chris' rules. __________________ *Ozzie Alfonso* www.ozziealfonso.com

January 10th, 2002, 08:34 AM	#53
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Reply to Dave W. & Jack M. Dave, I want to issue a challenge to you(and to Jack M.). Please give the Canon Service Center a call and tell them that your Xl1 is recording at a sampling rate of 48.006 Khz and you need a new one that is recording at 48.000Khz and give me some feedback on what they say. Please point me in the direction of your information that you have concerning the sampling rate problem.

January 18th, 2002, 03:34 PM	#55
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Reply to Brad Hi Brad, same result here. That was the first thing they did. My camera is right now back at Canon and they have ordered a main bd (circuit board) for it from Japan. Unfortunately I (or they) do not know when I will be seeing my camera again since the part has not yet arrived. When It comes back I will let you know if it works correctly or not. But like you I have purchased Scanalyzer and I am capturing everything with it and it all is coming in at 29.97 using my FireWire card. Gob bless the person who wrote that code! If you want some info on the 48Khz issue go to www.adamwilt.com

January 18th, 2002, 04:46 PM	#58
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Where is your camera, Irvine CA or Jamesburg NJ? __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 9th, 2002, 03:13 PM	#46
Dave Wolfenden Posts: n/a	<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Mitchell : Robin, You said that the last time your camera came back from Canon it was broken. The fact is the that when you bought your camera from Canon your camera was broken. Your camera is recording at an off sampling rate instead of a true 48000 kHz. You've proved that several times over with all of your testing. If you play back a tape that you've recorded in your XL-1 in any other camera or deck, it will capture at the 29.96. If you play a tape on your XL-1 that you've recorded in any other DV device, it will capture at 29.97. You're in serious denial. Premiere bases it's frame rate count on the sampling rate of the video clip. Granted, probably not the best thought out design. But, if your camera was doing things correctly to begin with, you wouldn't be having this problem. If the trained monkeys at Canon broke your camera broke your camera the last time you sent it in, I'm confused about why you continue to have so much faith in their ability to give good technical advice. As for the tip for using Scenalyzer, that came directly from this forum. Obviously Adobe monitors this forum looking for ways to help folks like you. Can you say that about Canon? - Jack -->>>

January 9th, 2002, 03:23 PM	#47
Dave Wolfenden Posts: n/a	The Canon XL-1 audio sampling rate has been reported by people smarter than I as being 48.006 and that is what causes the drift on long clips. The 29.97 frame rate came along with the compatibility issue when color TV came out. The "drop frame" actually adjusts the time code using a set formula. There are a number of good explanations of this on the web. Do a Google. It's not even an issue with me any more. Scenalyzer Live solved the problem and it's a darn good capture utility with superb machine control and analog capture to boot. ...and yes, the old RGB color wheel camera did make that first trip to the moon. Remember the three color plastic sheets that you pasted over the B&W tv screen to get "color"? I, too, am old.

January 9th, 2002, 04:15 PM	#48
Vic Owen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 540	Wow! That's fascinating...I wasn't aware of that. As I recall, it wasn't compatible with B&W, so rejected. I can remember promos mentioning "RCA Compatible Color" or something like that. I was born in the early 40s, so I must have been close to diapers then, as well. (Some would say we're close now!) Vic

January 9th, 2002, 08:37 PM	#50
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I beg your pardon. I was born in 1948...and not an "old foggie" yet. Maybe it's those three extra years ya got on me, Ozzie.....LOL

January 9th, 2002, 10:34 PM	#52
Vic Owen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 540	Actually, fairly close. I manage the field office that's responsible for the operation of the FAA air traffic systems at Sea-Tac. But, you're right -- I'd better save this stuff for the bio section (Sorry, Chris!) I'll have to say, though, this is an enjoyable community over here in land of the wierd looking camera! Vic <<<-- Originally posted by ozziealfonso : Well, to quote you pal: "...I was born in the early 40s" Humm... so you work for the FAA hey? Are you one of those guys who keeps asking "you're cleared to where?" ;-) Sorry to everyone but this has gone waaay off topic.

January 18th, 2002, 02:46 PM	#54
Brad_DeWees New Boot Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 17	I got it back from Canon with an Adobe KB article about correcting audio sync problems. It didn't help, but getting sclive from Scenalyzer.com did. -Brad

January 18th, 2002, 03:47 PM	#56
Brad_DeWees New Boot Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 17	Hmm, good reading Robin. I spent alot of time searching prior to sending in the camera and never came across that. I take it you sent it back to have them fix the audio problem, or was there some other gremlin at work? -Brad

January 18th, 2002, 03:53 PM	#57
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	It all stemmed from the audio sync issue. This is the fourth time at their repair depot. Hopefully the main board replacement will fix it. I emailed them and I have been invited to escalate the request if the results on this repair are not satisfactory. Have a good weekend!

January 21st, 2002, 08:39 AM	#59
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Jamesburg...are there differences?

January 21st, 2002, 03:45 PM	#60
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	I have had the same results with Scenalyzer. I don't understand how a $33.00 program is able to capture from the XL-1 in perfect sync while this is a problem with Cinestream, Premiere and FCP. One would think that if one program could compensate correctly, they all should be able to compensate similarly.