Sound on mini disc need your thoughts

Chris Ferrer · July 16th, 2002, 06:53 AM

As for battery backup, I saw a product called Eco-Charge which looks like a small sealed external battery that has various connectors for most all recorders. http://www.ecocharge.com/bplus.htm

Its funny becaue all the faults I find with DAT are inherent with MiniDV like magnetic media, recording heads and the mechanical tape transport... So I guess DAT wouldn't be such a bad choice for the next few years. Like you said Jeff, who knows whats going to be around in 5 years.

Although most my jobs wont really require the higher sample rate, I really dont want to be limited by it either. The Marantz PMD-690 does seem to be the other contender now though... It can capture straight, uncompressed PCM audio at several sample rates, solid state so no heads or transports to break, media is not magnetic. I just wish there was some real world reports on its performace in the DV world...

I probably need to just go buy something and live with the fact that it will be much better than what I have now.

Chris

Al Holston · July 18th, 2002, 10:59 AM

I too, have been looking at separate audio vs/ camera audio.
Digital Audio is "digital" too, so the media it is stored on does NOT degrade its image directly (it does affect its long-term storage, however) -- be it tape, disk or minidisk or ?...
The difference is the Digital Analog Converters and the sample rate and compression routine they use. Camera audio can be made as good as its video, their called Pro cameras, and have built in XLRs and yes they are half again to twice the size of a XL1.
I have ruled out mini-disk due to its compression and limitations.

Next on my list is DAT, the Tascam DA-PA1 was high on my list (my the way DAT's use VCR tape transport/head configs.) so have the can-be-knocked-out of alignment problem and must be kept clean. It is still a linear format. It is fairly compact and incorporates a two-channel mic/line audio w/monitoring and gets two hours on one recharge of built-in battery. The DA-PA1 is in the $1500 price range.

Then, I discovered "hard disk recording", it is non-linear, has newer DAC (can sample 24-bit/48 MHz and soon 96mhz should be avail. I found one unit made in England (will get name and model and post later), that was designed for radio/TV ENG use, is not much bigger than a mini-disk (uses 3.5 hard drive &7200 rpm), and has two-channel mic/line inputs. Price is around $1,200.

If you have a laptop (compact one) with a Pent. III or Mac G3/G4 (incl. I-Book) and a basic audio program (protools free will work or an ASIO program is better), all you need is the Sounddevices USB Pre ($550) and you have a "hard disk recorder," a little larger, but the price is right and you have a high quality,
I too, have been looking at separate audio vs/ camera audio.
Digital Audio is "digital" too, so the media it is stored on does NOT degrade its image directly (it does affect its long-term storage, however) -- be it tape, disk or minidisk or ?...
The difference is the Digital Analog Converters and the sample rate and compression routine they use. Camera audio can be made as good as its video, their called Pro cameras, and have built in XLRs and yes they are half again to twice the size of a XL1. The Sony DCX series is one example (also almost twice the cost once configured).
I have ruled out mini-disk due to its compression and limitations. Next on my list is DAT, the Tascam DA-PA1 was high on my list, but DAT's use VCR tape and transport/head configs.) so have the can-be-knocked-out of alignment problem and must be kept clean. It is still a linear format. It is fairly compact and incorporates a two-channel mic/line audio w/monitoring and gets two hours on one recharge of built-in battery. The DA-PA1 is in the $1500 price range.

Then, I discovered "hard disk recording", it is non-linear, has newer DAC (can sample 24-bit/48 MHz and soon 96mhz should be avail. I found one unit made in England (will get name and model and post later), that was designed for radio/TV ENG use, is not much bigger than a mini-disk (uses 3.5 hard drive &7200 rpm), and has two-channel mic/line inputs. Price is around $1,200.

USB-powered DAC with audio and digital in/outs and very good mic. preamps. w/phantom power at a very affordable price; however, a little bigger than a dedicated portable HD recorder -- but you can feel the water before jumping in.

I am personally leaning towards the portable hard disk recorder, It is however, where the tech. is going -- tape medium sys are being shown the "back door" -- but tape is still good, just need to be careful with it -- the important issue is the DAC and its bit depth and sample rate --remember, everything is heading to floating 32-bit at 96mHz standard -- Mac's OSX 2.0 is set to provide this standard in its new sound manager! What next?

al.

Jeff Donald · July 18th, 2002, 11:22 AM

Hard Drive recorders are practical for some situations and not others. I do a lot of field work where i have to carry equipment a good distance. The weight of the HD recorder and its dependence on larger batteries is a problem for me. I prefer something that can mount to the camera or to my belt. However HD recording in the studio, or more controlled situations, and where AC power is available makes a lot of sense. I don't worry about tape as a medium. I've used it for years, I know what to expect and whats expected of me. Keep things clean. As a recording medium it is very inexpensive.

Jeff

Al Holston · July 18th, 2002, 07:18 PM

Jeff,
Your'e right, I also have been using tape for more than 30 years, at first that's all there was. Now things are changing, and soon we should have hard disk recorders that can go into the field just as conviently as tape does -- same size/weight package; until then, I'll keep recording on tape too -- on the camera. But when you need seperate audio, the new portable hard disk recorders are worth looking at.
Just given the choice of the portable dat vs a portable hard disk that was somewhat smaller and $200-$400 less money, I'm considering the disk unit.
There are many choices in audio, and they fit different requirements and situations -- only the end user can define what option is best for their situation.
al.

Chris Ferrer · July 18th, 2002, 07:41 PM

I do think everything is headed the way of hard disk too. Al, I would love to know which recorder you are referring to for $1200, I have spent days combing the net for viable solutions and have not come up with much... I did find the Maycom Easycorder which looks real nice and has great specs but I cant find good source for a price. Also the Sonifex Courier looks nice too!

I would also like to get some feedback on the marantz series of portable HD recorders but there doesnt seem to be much out there... They seem to be the most affordable units on the market that have profesional features.

I am so close to just jumping on the DA-P1 but I am afraid I will find some fantastic HD solution for a similar price, this is drving me crazy!

Ray Saavedra · July 18th, 2002, 11:47 PM

Has anyone tried Creative Nomad 20gb. It has a Line-In for direct stereo audio recording in WAV format from external devices and a usb.

http://www.nomadworld.com/products/Jukebox_20GB/

K. Forman · July 19th, 2002, 06:04 AM

Whatever you end up looking to use, you might want to make sure it has decent inputs and outputs. I have XLR and 1/4" so that I can run good balanced mics, or even off of a house sound board.
Keith

Al Holston · July 19th, 2002, 09:02 AM

It is a English-built unit, I may be a little off on the price, but I remember it being a little cheeper than the DAT. I will find my info sheet on this and post the name and source.

Regarding inputs, the device is only as good as its weekest link -- that usually means the ins/outs. At the least it sould have "bal" line ins and digitial out (hopefully via firewire).

Chris Ferrer · July 19th, 2002, 04:15 PM

I wouldnt consider a unit if it didnt have 2 Bal. XLRs for L & R stereo recording and some sort of digital interface like S/PDIF or firewire. Those two things are a necessity and they have all been on the units I am looking into. I found that the Sonifex Courier can record directly to AIFF format which I use in Final Cut Pro a lot, also does uncompressed audio in .wav.... It looks funny but I think it will more than get the job done!

http://www.sonifex.co.uk/courier/page.shtml

I will have to contact the US distributor and find out more about it.

Al Holston · July 20th, 2002, 11:25 AM

Videohead,
Your'e right, you need 2 Bal. XLRs for L & R stereo recording and digitial out (pref. firewire) for inporting files into the editing program on any serious audio recording device.
The Sonifex Courier sounds like the one I may have been looking for, I'm on the search for the info sheet I had, and will post when I find it. al.

Chris Ferrer · July 20th, 2002, 12:10 PM

I have just recently talked with a few production sound companies in CA (Coffey Sound http://www.coffeysound.com was one of them) and they basically said DAT is still a widely used format but several compaines are starting to switch from DAT to the new high end Deva and Nagra HD recorders. Nobody had any input on the low end models in the 2k and under price range even though they sold them!... it doesnt seem that they have caught on yet at all. I did get several recommendations for professional MD & Tascam's DA-P1 though when I told them my budget.

If I only had 10k to spend... that Deva II is amazing! HHB is coming out with its Portadrive to compete with it this fall.

So unless I hear absolutely wonderful things from the US distributor about the Sonifex Courier when I talk to them on Monday, its a toss up between the HHB MDP-500 MD and the Tascam DA-P1 DAT...

Al Holston · July 20th, 2002, 02:41 PM

Videohead,
That's interesting, seems we're out there on the edge of what's just around the corrner. Good luck with the distrib. on Monday, let me know what you find out. al.

Jeff Donald · July 20th, 2002, 03:01 PM

I think there are at least a handfull of us with the same dilema. I've read review after review and looked at site after site looking for the ideal recorder. The downside to DAT for me is size, weight and cost of media. MD is smaller, lighter and if you buy in quanity, about $2 per disc. DAT has slightly higher audio specs than MD, but the media is much higher. I can't find many name brands for less than $10 a tape. After a couple of long projects and the DAT is now much more expensive. So, what's my reservaton? DAT has the better specs, but I'm not sure if I can hear the difference. Long story short, I'm going to buy the MD, try it on a project and listen very carefully. If the quality isn't there, it'll be for sale real soon.

Jeff

Chris Ferrer · July 20th, 2002, 10:05 PM

Jeff, I dont think you will be upset with MD, I am on the edge myself of going that route. It is 16 bit audio, just a little lower sample rate. When you think about it, all the CDs are 44.1 and they sound absolutley fantastic when I pull tracks off them into Final Cut so MD shouldnt make a bit of difference...

I just hate being down at 44.1 when everything else we work with is higher (and only going to get higher!) but for the type of work I do (mostly weddings) I think MD will work perfectly. I guess if I really want to capture something with the best possible quailty (ie. 48 KHz), I will just have to make sure I use my XL1s for that.

I also hate that there is no information on all these HD recorders out there, someone has to be using them! It really does seem like it would fit the bill. I guess I will find out more when I talk to them.

I think if I go the cheaper MD route I may splurge and get me another sennheiser shotgun, I love my ME-66! (I have an eye on that MKH-416 now)

Chris

Chris Ferrer · July 21st, 2002, 07:14 AM

I did happen to find a decent resource in my travels.

http://www.audiodirectory.nl/

It is a nicely organized directory of everything audio.

July 18th, 2002, 10:59 AM	#17
Al Holston Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 51	M.D.'s DAT / HD recorders I too, have been looking at separate audio vs/ camera audio. Digital Audio is "digital" too, so the media it is stored on does NOT degrade its image directly (it does affect its long-term storage, however) -- be it tape, disk or minidisk or ?... The difference is the Digital Analog Converters and the sample rate and compression routine they use. Camera audio can be made as good as its video, their called Pro cameras, and have built in XLRs and yes they are half again to twice the size of a XL1. I have ruled out mini-disk due to its compression and limitations. Next on my list is DAT, the Tascam DA-PA1 was high on my list (my the way DAT's use VCR tape transport/head configs.) so have the can-be-knocked-out of alignment problem and must be kept clean. It is still a linear format. It is fairly compact and incorporates a two-channel mic/line audio w/monitoring and gets two hours on one recharge of built-in battery. The DA-PA1 is in the $1500 price range. Then, I discovered "hard disk recording", it is non-linear, has newer DAC (can sample 24-bit/48 MHz and soon 96mhz should be avail. I found one unit made in England (will get name and model and post later), that was designed for radio/TV ENG use, is not much bigger than a mini-disk (uses 3.5 hard drive &7200 rpm), and has two-channel mic/line inputs. Price is around $1,200. If you have a laptop (compact one) with a Pent. III or Mac G3/G4 (incl. I-Book) and a basic audio program (protools free will work or an ASIO program is better), all you need is the Sounddevices USB Pre ($550) and you have a "hard disk recorder," a little larger, but the price is right and you have a high quality, I too, have been looking at separate audio vs/ camera audio. Digital Audio is "digital" too, so the media it is stored on does NOT degrade its image directly (it does affect its long-term storage, however) -- be it tape, disk or minidisk or ?... The difference is the Digital Analog Converters and the sample rate and compression routine they use. Camera audio can be made as good as its video, their called Pro cameras, and have built in XLRs and yes they are half again to twice the size of a XL1. The Sony DCX series is one example (also almost twice the cost once configured). I have ruled out mini-disk due to its compression and limitations. Next on my list is DAT, the Tascam DA-PA1 was high on my list, but DAT's use VCR tape and transport/head configs.) so have the can-be-knocked-out of alignment problem and must be kept clean. It is still a linear format. It is fairly compact and incorporates a two-channel mic/line audio w/monitoring and gets two hours on one recharge of built-in battery. The DA-PA1 is in the $1500 price range. Then, I discovered "hard disk recording", it is non-linear, has newer DAC (can sample 24-bit/48 MHz and soon 96mhz should be avail. I found one unit made in England (will get name and model and post later), that was designed for radio/TV ENG use, is not much bigger than a mini-disk (uses 3.5 hard drive &7200 rpm), and has two-channel mic/line inputs. Price is around $1,200. USB-powered DAC with audio and digital in/outs and very good mic. preamps. w/phantom power at a very affordable price; however, a little bigger than a dedicated portable HD recorder -- but you can feel the water before jumping in. I am personally leaning towards the portable hard disk recorder, It is however, where the tech. is going -- tape medium sys are being shown the "back door" -- but tape is still good, just need to be careful with it -- the important issue is the DAC and its bit depth and sample rate --remember, everything is heading to floating 32-bit at 96mHz standard -- Mac's OSX 2.0 is set to provide this standard in its new sound manager! What next? al. __________________ Al

July 18th, 2002, 07:18 PM	#19
Al Holston Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 51	Jeff, Your'e right, I also have been using tape for more than 30 years, at first that's all there was. Now things are changing, and soon we should have hard disk recorders that can go into the field just as conviently as tape does -- same size/weight package; until then, I'll keep recording on tape too -- on the camera. But when you need seperate audio, the new portable hard disk recorders are worth looking at. Just given the choice of the portable dat vs a portable hard disk that was somewhat smaller and $200-$400 less money, I'm considering the disk unit. There are many choices in audio, and they fit different requirements and situations -- only the end user can define what option is best for their situation. al. __________________ Al

July 19th, 2002, 09:02 AM	#23
Al Holston Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 51	It is a English-built unit, I may be a little off on the price, but I remember it being a little cheeper than the DAT. I will find my info sheet on this and post the name and source. Regarding inputs, the device is only as good as its weekest link -- that usually means the ins/outs. At the least it sould have "bal" line ins and digitial out (hopefully via firewire). __________________ Al

July 20th, 2002, 11:25 AM	#25
Al Holston Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 51	Videohead, Your'e right, you need 2 Bal. XLRs for L & R stereo recording and digitial out (pref. firewire) for inporting files into the editing program on any serious audio recording device. The Sonifex Courier sounds like the one I may have been looking for, I'm on the search for the info sheet I had, and will post when I find it. al. __________________ Al

July 20th, 2002, 02:41 PM	#27
Al Holston Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 51	Videohead, That's interesting, seems we're out there on the edge of what's just around the corrner. Good luck with the distrib. on Monday, let me know what you find out. al. __________________ Al

July 16th, 2002, 06:53 AM	#16
Chris Ferrer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Durham Posts: 116	As for battery backup, I saw a product called Eco-Charge which looks like a small sealed external battery that has various connectors for most all recorders. http://www.ecocharge.com/bplus.htm Its funny becaue all the faults I find with DAT are inherent with MiniDV like magnetic media, recording heads and the mechanical tape transport... So I guess DAT wouldn't be such a bad choice for the next few years. Like you said Jeff, who knows whats going to be around in 5 years. Although most my jobs wont really require the higher sample rate, I really dont want to be limited by it either. The Marantz PMD-690 does seem to be the other contender now though... It can capture straight, uncompressed PCM audio at several sample rates, solid state so no heads or transports to break, media is not magnetic. I just wish there was some real world reports on its performace in the DV world... I probably need to just go buy something and live with the fact that it will be much better than what I have now. Chris

July 18th, 2002, 11:22 AM	#18
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Hard Drive recorders are practical for some situations and not others. I do a lot of field work where i have to carry equipment a good distance. The weight of the HD recorder and its dependence on larger batteries is a problem for me. I prefer something that can mount to the camera or to my belt. However HD recording in the studio, or more controlled situations, and where AC power is available makes a lot of sense. I don't worry about tape as a medium. I've used it for years, I know what to expect and whats expected of me. Keep things clean. As a recording medium it is very inexpensive. Jeff

July 18th, 2002, 07:41 PM	#20
Chris Ferrer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Durham Posts: 116	I do think everything is headed the way of hard disk too. Al, I would love to know which recorder you are referring to for $1200, I have spent days combing the net for viable solutions and have not come up with much... I did find the Maycom Easycorder which looks real nice and has great specs but I cant find good source for a price. Also the Sonifex Courier looks nice too! I would also like to get some feedback on the marantz series of portable HD recorders but there doesnt seem to be much out there... They seem to be the most affordable units on the market that have profesional features. I am so close to just jumping on the DA-P1 but I am afraid I will find some fantastic HD solution for a similar price, this is drving me crazy!

July 18th, 2002, 11:47 PM	#21
Ray Saavedra Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 127	Has anyone tried Creative Nomad 20gb. It has a Line-In for direct stereo audio recording in WAV format from external devices and a usb. http://www.nomadworld.com/products/Jukebox_20GB/

July 19th, 2002, 06:04 AM	#22
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Whatever you end up looking to use, you might want to make sure it has decent inputs and outputs. I have XLR and 1/4" so that I can run good balanced mics, or even off of a house sound board. Keith

July 19th, 2002, 04:15 PM	#24
Chris Ferrer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Durham Posts: 116	I wouldnt consider a unit if it didnt have 2 Bal. XLRs for L & R stereo recording and some sort of digital interface like S/PDIF or firewire. Those two things are a necessity and they have all been on the units I am looking into. I found that the Sonifex Courier can record directly to AIFF format which I use in Final Cut Pro a lot, also does uncompressed audio in .wav.... It looks funny but I think it will more than get the job done! http://www.sonifex.co.uk/courier/page.shtml I will have to contact the US distributor and find out more about it.

July 20th, 2002, 12:10 PM	#26
Chris Ferrer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Durham Posts: 116	I have just recently talked with a few production sound companies in CA (Coffey Sound http://www.coffeysound.com was one of them) and they basically said DAT is still a widely used format but several compaines are starting to switch from DAT to the new high end Deva and Nagra HD recorders. Nobody had any input on the low end models in the 2k and under price range even though they sold them!... it doesnt seem that they have caught on yet at all. I did get several recommendations for professional MD & Tascam's DA-P1 though when I told them my budget. If I only had 10k to spend... that Deva II is amazing! HHB is coming out with its Portadrive to compete with it this fall. So unless I hear absolutely wonderful things from the US distributor about the Sonifex Courier when I talk to them on Monday, its a toss up between the HHB MDP-500 MD and the Tascam DA-P1 DAT...

July 20th, 2002, 03:01 PM	#28
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I think there are at least a handfull of us with the same dilema. I've read review after review and looked at site after site looking for the ideal recorder. The downside to DAT for me is size, weight and cost of media. MD is smaller, lighter and if you buy in quanity, about $2 per disc. DAT has slightly higher audio specs than MD, but the media is much higher. I can't find many name brands for less than $10 a tape. After a couple of long projects and the DAT is now much more expensive. So, what's my reservaton? DAT has the better specs, but I'm not sure if I can hear the difference. Long story short, I'm going to buy the MD, try it on a project and listen very carefully. If the quality isn't there, it'll be for sale real soon. Jeff

July 20th, 2002, 10:05 PM	#29
Chris Ferrer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Durham Posts: 116	Jeff, I dont think you will be upset with MD, I am on the edge myself of going that route. It is 16 bit audio, just a little lower sample rate. When you think about it, all the CDs are 44.1 and they sound absolutley fantastic when I pull tracks off them into Final Cut so MD shouldnt make a bit of difference... I just hate being down at 44.1 when everything else we work with is higher (and only going to get higher!) but for the type of work I do (mostly weddings) I think MD will work perfectly. I guess if I really want to capture something with the best possible quailty (ie. 48 KHz), I will just have to make sure I use my XL1s for that. I also hate that there is no information on all these HD recorders out there, someone has to be using them! It really does seem like it would fit the bill. I guess I will find out more when I talk to them. I think if I go the cheaper MD route I may splurge and get me another sennheiser shotgun, I love my ME-66! (I have an eye on that MKH-416 now) Chris

July 21st, 2002, 07:14 AM	#30
Chris Ferrer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Durham Posts: 116	I did happen to find a decent resource in my travels. http://www.audiodirectory.nl/ It is a nicely organized directory of everything audio.