Digital slo mo? at DVinfo.net

Ed Kelly · March 27th, 2004, 08:19 AM

I have noticed while doing interviews that sometimes I seem to get a slightly out of sinc situation, the audio is ever so slightly off from the speakers lip movements. has any one else encountered this with the XL1S? I have blamed it on to the wrong corresponging shutter speed to the Iris. I dont get it all the time, but when it comes up, its noriceable, and I can reset and reshoot and it will be ok. Sometimes when the editors are in a hurry to go to news, they take the first shot off the tape rather than shuffeling through to get the second shot, and sometimes this can get played.
anr feedback would be a great help.
Thsnks, Ed

Michael Summers · March 27th, 2004, 09:52 PM

this happens when you're capturing DV and at the end of the capture something happens and it says "time-code break" and this slightly sets the audio off, so everytime this happens, i have to find out when the timecode breaks and stop capturing before that, so it doesnt break, and i start capturing again after the break, it takes patience and pratice but i've pretty much got it down.
if this isnt it, try manually placing the audio to where it looks fit, thats what i have to do when the time code breaks and i dont want t capture it again.

Jeff Donald · March 27th, 2004, 09:56 PM

Ed, are yo Mac or PC? The sync loss is mostly a product of your NLE. However, some cameras, such as the XL1 are more prone to sync loss because of fireWire issues.

Jeff Donald · March 28th, 2004, 05:59 PM

Ed, DV does not have locked audio. However, the DV spec allows only +/- 1/3 of a frame. I doubt you can see a 1/3 of a frame sync loss, so the problem probably lies else where. Are you recording 12 bit or 16 bit audio? Problems do arise with 12 bit audio from time to time. If your recording 16 bit, I would sent the camera back to Canon for service. I would include sample tapes showing the issues.

Ed Kelly · March 28th, 2004, 06:09 PM

thanks Jeff,
I am recording 12 bit. I'll have to do a couple sample setups to see if it is a frequently reoccuring problem.
Ed Kelly

Jeff Donald · March 28th, 2004, 06:35 PM

Switch to 16 bit audio. I think your sync issues will be gone and your sound quality will improve.

Matthew Elyash · January 21st, 2005, 01:46 AM

Jeff, your suggestions are great for Ed who has the luxury of recording 16bit 2 ch audio, but what about us who need to record on all 4 channels under the 12 bit standard? We have wireless mic's wired into the MA-100 which feed ch 3&4 and many times the other audio is just there as a backup, or for natural sound, But other times it is really critical to what we are doing!
We need to wire into the MA-100 since our mics are XLR and the cables would not even reach (let alone fit) the inputs for the other channels up on the handle.

Why if SONY Vegas can do this, and others can, why is it that Adobe Premier Pro 1.5, the most prodigious and most popular editing software out there handle a simple issue such as this?

As I read this the above sounds like I am somehow blaming you which I assure you and all who read this I am not! However, after messing about for hours on end with no luck, I am at whit's end.

I even broke down and Paid for tech support (don't get me started....) and although they decided not to charge me, they told me that with Canon XL-1 cameras and some other Canon models, they can not capture a DV file with more than maybe 6 minutes length without begining to loose audio and video sync!

They even had a fix posted for this problem with Premier 6.X but the fix is not applicable to Premier Pro!

Why do we users stand for this kind of sillyness? It is not like the XL-1 is some kind of off brand, only built a few hundred unit, sold in back ally grey market, "has been" camera..... It is the mainstay of thousands of hard working professional videographers who believed that they were buying a great camera and by going ADOBE the were buying a great editing system! Instead of that, they get an edit system that can not even keep video and audio in sync for the average time it takes to smoke a butt!

Some poor sod just went and paid full retail for Adobe Video Collection Pro, and he can't even keep sync for the lenght of time it takes the average person to make breakfast? What kind of value is that?

Sure, Adobe says "it's not our problem.... Canon doesn't quite meet the standards put forth in the design specifications for DV" Funny, Sony Vegas 5 has no problem making it work, Canopus has no problem making it work, To my knowlege Matrox has no problem making it work...... Only Adobe, poor little Adobe of San Jose, Who has more major software titles out there than almost anybody I can think of, yes poor little Adobe.

Adobe Software, a company so entrenched and pervasive, I can walk thru my office and count probably 30 fully licenced copies of their products. Everything from Video Collection, to Pagemaker, InDesign, Photoshop7, Creative Suite, Acrobat full version, and a host of others. A software company who so fully dominates the market that they don't think it's important enough to all the people who have bought XL-1 cameras to even code thier software so it will work right. Amazing.

Finally I want to thank you for allowing me to express my extreme outrage at the fact that a company can charge far in excess of $1000 for a software collection, and ignore 50-100 thousand people who with the money they poured into Digital Video in the early days, and bought the XL-1 helped bring forth the very digital video revolution we all enjoy. Thanks for turning your back on us Adobe, Thanks a lot.

Jimmy McKenzie · January 22nd, 2005, 06:31 AM

Try 16 bit and get back to us. Diagnosing one issue at a time is the only way to isolate this malady.
I use the same equipment setup as you with much success.

Matthew Elyash · January 22nd, 2005, 02:04 PM

I need to shoot in 12 bit because I use all 4 channels of audio. I guess I can try it in 16bit to isolate the problem, but even if it works in 16bit, then we still have a problem since it won't work for me.

Anyway, will give it a go, and let you know.

matt

Jimmy McKenzie · January 22nd, 2005, 02:17 PM

No misunderstanding. I know precisely with the fullest optical clarity exactly what you are trying to accomplish.
Another workaround would be to use a field mixer with a cheery amount of inputs and then send L/R ST1 16 bit into the xl...........

That would mean a second set of hands but the spin-off benefit would be an extra set of headphones monitoring the feed.

Cheers!

Rhett Allen · January 22nd, 2005, 04:25 PM

Hey Matthew, why don't you send Adobe the best signal a consumer can and quit using their products? If everyone else can do it but Adobe, why make yourself suffer so? (I don't use Premier anymore and even have 2 unopened CD's from the Video Production Bundles)

Adobe Premier has historically been plagued with audio problems and the Canon cameras only add to that because of their audio clock rate being off, (I will add that most cameras might be a little off but the Canons are supposedly the worst). Most NLE's have some sort of "Audio Sync Adjust" for captures over a certain length. By enabling this, your software will adjust the clock rate to help keep the audio in sync as you capture.

DV audio is not locked. BUT, technically it isn't supposed to drift that far. In reality though, it CAN. DVCAM and DVCPro are locked but that's another story. I think the best thing you can do is try to make shorter captures.
I feel your pain man, I have a client who insists on recording with VHS and brings me this mess of crap to edit (long continuous captures) and the audio varies from being anywhere around 4 seconds ahead to 6 seconds behind. Oh what a mess! (I'm not even going to tell you about the video quality, or lack of it rather)

March 27th, 2004, 08:19 AM	#1
Ed Kelly Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Gansevoort, NY Posts: 138	Digital slo mo? I have noticed while doing interviews that sometimes I seem to get a slightly out of sinc situation, the audio is ever so slightly off from the speakers lip movements. has any one else encountered this with the XL1S? I have blamed it on to the wrong corresponging shutter speed to the Iris. I dont get it all the time, but when it comes up, its noriceable, and I can reset and reshoot and it will be ok. Sometimes when the editors are in a hurry to go to news, they take the first shot off the tape rather than shuffeling through to get the second shot, and sometimes this can get played. anr feedback would be a great help. Thsnks, Ed

March 27th, 2004, 09:52 PM	#2
Michael Summers Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Chicago, Illinois Posts: 65	this happens when you're capturing DV and at the end of the capture something happens and it says "time-code break" and this slightly sets the audio off, so everytime this happens, i have to find out when the timecode breaks and stop capturing before that, so it doesnt break, and i start capturing again after the break, it takes patience and pratice but i've pretty much got it down. if this isnt it, try manually placing the audio to where it looks fit, thats what i have to do when the time code breaks and i dont want t capture it again. __________________ www.astrosecretfilms.com real independent

March 27th, 2004, 09:56 PM	#3
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Ed, are yo Mac or PC? The sync loss is mostly a product of your NLE. However, some cameras, such as the XL1 are more prone to sync loss because of fireWire issues. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

March 28th, 2004, 05:59 PM	#4
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Ed, DV does not have locked audio. However, the DV spec allows only +/- 1/3 of a frame. I doubt you can see a 1/3 of a frame sync loss, so the problem probably lies else where. Are you recording 12 bit or 16 bit audio? Problems do arise with 12 bit audio from time to time. If your recording 16 bit, I would sent the camera back to Canon for service. I would include sample tapes showing the issues. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

March 28th, 2004, 06:35 PM	#6
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Switch to 16 bit audio. I think your sync issues will be gone and your sound quality will improve. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

March 28th, 2004, 06:09 PM	#5
Ed Kelly Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Gansevoort, NY Posts: 138	thanks Jeff, I am recording 12 bit. I'll have to do a couple sample setups to see if it is a frequently reoccuring problem. Ed Kelly

January 21st, 2005, 01:46 AM	#7
Matthew Elyash New Boot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sacramento CA Posts: 12	But I have to record in 12 bit audio! Jeff, your suggestions are great for Ed who has the luxury of recording 16bit 2 ch audio, but what about us who need to record on all 4 channels under the 12 bit standard? We have wireless mic's wired into the MA-100 which feed ch 3&4 and many times the other audio is just there as a backup, or for natural sound, But other times it is really critical to what we are doing! We need to wire into the MA-100 since our mics are XLR and the cables would not even reach (let alone fit) the inputs for the other channels up on the handle. Why if SONY Vegas can do this, and others can, why is it that Adobe Premier Pro 1.5, the most prodigious and most popular editing software out there handle a simple issue such as this? As I read this the above sounds like I am somehow blaming you which I assure you and all who read this I am not! However, after messing about for hours on end with no luck, I am at whit's end. I even broke down and Paid for tech support (don't get me started....) and although they decided not to charge me, they told me that with Canon XL-1 cameras and some other Canon models, they can not capture a DV file with more than maybe 6 minutes length without begining to loose audio and video sync! They even had a fix posted for this problem with Premier 6.X but the fix is not applicable to Premier Pro! Why do we users stand for this kind of sillyness? It is not like the XL-1 is some kind of off brand, only built a few hundred unit, sold in back ally grey market, "has been" camera..... It is the mainstay of thousands of hard working professional videographers who believed that they were buying a great camera and by going ADOBE the were buying a great editing system! Instead of that, they get an edit system that can not even keep video and audio in sync for the average time it takes to smoke a butt! Some poor sod just went and paid full retail for Adobe Video Collection Pro, and he can't even keep sync for the lenght of time it takes the average person to make breakfast? What kind of value is that? Sure, Adobe says "it's not our problem.... Canon doesn't quite meet the standards put forth in the design specifications for DV" Funny, Sony Vegas 5 has no problem making it work, Canopus has no problem making it work, To my knowlege Matrox has no problem making it work...... Only Adobe, poor little Adobe of San Jose, Who has more major software titles out there than almost anybody I can think of, yes poor little Adobe. Adobe Software, a company so entrenched and pervasive, I can walk thru my office and count probably 30 fully licenced copies of their products. Everything from Video Collection, to Pagemaker, InDesign, Photoshop7, Creative Suite, Acrobat full version, and a host of others. A software company who so fully dominates the market that they don't think it's important enough to all the people who have bought XL-1 cameras to even code thier software so it will work right. Amazing. Finally I want to thank you for allowing me to express my extreme outrage at the fact that a company can charge far in excess of $1000 for a software collection, and ignore 50-100 thousand people who with the money they poured into Digital Video in the early days, and bought the XL-1 helped bring forth the very digital video revolution we all enjoy. Thanks for turning your back on us Adobe, Thanks a lot.

January 22nd, 2005, 06:31 AM	#8
Jimmy McKenzie Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Waterloo Ontario Posts: 721	Try 16 bit and get back to us. Diagnosing one issue at a time is the only way to isolate this malady. I use the same equipment setup as you with much success.

January 22nd, 2005, 02:04 PM	#9
Matthew Elyash New Boot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sacramento CA Posts: 12	perhaps you misunderstood I need to shoot in 12 bit because I use all 4 channels of audio. I guess I can try it in 16bit to isolate the problem, but even if it works in 16bit, then we still have a problem since it won't work for me. Anyway, will give it a go, and let you know. matt

January 22nd, 2005, 02:17 PM	#10
Jimmy McKenzie Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Waterloo Ontario Posts: 721	No misunderstanding. I know precisely with the fullest optical clarity exactly what you are trying to accomplish. Another workaround would be to use a field mixer with a cheery amount of inputs and then send L/R ST1 16 bit into the xl........... That would mean a second set of hands but the spin-off benefit would be an extra set of headphones monitoring the feed. Cheers!

January 22nd, 2005, 04:25 PM	#11
Rhett Allen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 607	Hey Matthew, why don't you send Adobe the best signal a consumer can and quit using their products? If everyone else can do it but Adobe, why make yourself suffer so? (I don't use Premier anymore and even have 2 unopened CD's from the Video Production Bundles) Adobe Premier has historically been plagued with audio problems and the Canon cameras only add to that because of their audio clock rate being off, (I will add that most cameras might be a little off but the Canons are supposedly the worst). Most NLE's have some sort of "Audio Sync Adjust" for captures over a certain length. By enabling this, your software will adjust the clock rate to help keep the audio in sync as you capture. DV audio is not locked. BUT, technically it isn't supposed to drift that far. In reality though, it CAN. DVCAM and DVCPro are locked but that's another story. I think the best thing you can do is try to make shorter captures. I feel your pain man, I have a client who insists on recording with VHS and brings me this mess of crap to edit (long continuous captures) and the audio varies from being anywhere around 4 seconds ahead to 6 seconds behind. Oh what a mess! (I'm not even going to tell you about the video quality, or lack of it rather)