XL1s vs PD-150: Doing my head in... at DVinfo.net

Jerry Laurence · May 25th, 2002, 07:46 AM

I've spent far too much time looking into this subject, without being able to make a rational decision. I really like the look and feel of the XL1s but have been somewhat put off by some negative comments about the standard 16x servo lens and contrast handling in particular. Compared with the PD-150, which has had great reviews, the XL1 (original version) does seem soft and too contrasty. However, I like the feel of a bigger camera. Upgrading to manual lens etc. is not an option at present.

Please can anyone reassure me that the XL1s, with its manual set-up functions, will enable me to sharpen the image and reduce contrast and thus persuade me not to go for the PD-150 instead?

Thanks in advance,

Jerry

ja135321 · May 25th, 2002, 02:39 PM

Hi Jerry,

I noticed your post after posting a gripe. I want to inform you about the XL1s before you buy it. I want to let you know what you're getting so you dont get it and find out all the problems I found and wish you bought the other camera.

And remember the problems, I have Canon claims that the camera is doing what its supposed to do.

1. Does not display 720x480. (which other cameras do.) With the xl1s you get a black band at the bottom of the frame 4 to 5 pixels high. So, when editing you have to crop which causes resolution loss. Or if you want to post up stills you have to crop. This means you have to always edit and do more work with the material because the camera can't do what it should do. Rather, the techs say its the fault of the computer, because its overscanning. This is funny because I've used about 6 different systems PCs and Macs, with different NLEs and all the same problem. I used footage from a SonyTRV20 and NO PROBLEMO.
First of all, The tech said, "during playing, viewing the footage thru the viewfinder, do you see any black bars?" My reply is "No."
He said the camera is function fine if you get everything within the viewfinder. (what you see is what you get thru viewfinder) is what he's claiming. This is lame because I dont used the viewfinder, I use an LCD and I see a black band at the bottom 4 pixels high. Besides, who wants to focus with that when you have an LCD?

2. Zoom noise is VERY apparent in quiet situations. I bought the mini mount and isolator, it helps but you can STILL HEAR THE ZOOM NOISE! They said its the way the camera works. Here's my teenagers respones, "whatever."

Hey if you want to buy my setup cheap I'll sell it all to you. Its a few months old with all the warranties. I'm switching to Sony.

May 25th, 2002, 06:13 PM

Wow,is this true???

I order my XL1s next week. Ive never heard of the first complaint, but have heard a few of the second one about zoom noise.

Does anyone else have this problem with the zoom?????

Aaron Koolen · May 25th, 2002, 08:13 PM

gateway, yes it is a problem. See this thread for lots of messages about it.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1743&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

Dan C. · May 26th, 2002, 05:53 AM

However, if you take a look through the vx2000 forum you will notice that many also report the zoom noise problem with that camera.

ja135321 · May 27th, 2002, 01:25 AM

yeah the VX2000 is alot cheaper than the XL1s. But they corrected the audio problem with the PD-150, since it has to be broadcast quality.

Bob Zimmerman · May 27th, 2002, 10:37 PM

How high is a pixel? The LA guy said something about 4 pixels? Someone fill in a rookie like myself on this. Is four pixels pretty high? Would the normal person even notice that?

May 27th, 2002, 10:45 PM

Im trying to figure that out as well, Im planning on buying a XL1s this week and I need to know if someone with a untrained eye will catch this flaw at the bottom of the image?

Bryan Beasleigh · May 28th, 2002, 12:37 AM

Until both understand what is meant your not really ready to make a decision. JMHO

Ted Jan · May 28th, 2002, 06:00 AM

a single pixel is barely noticeable on a computer screen...unless it's changing colors especially if it's changing colors not in relation to what is going onto the rest of the computer screen... If you ever seen a dead pixel on your computer screen you would know what I mean...

however the flaw that the XL1s has is 4 pixels in height and the length of the video, I believe...which I is going to be very noticeable especially if clients of some of the people on the forum can see it. So yes tothe untrain eye, you can see it.

<<<-- Originally posted by Zimvg304 : How high is a pixel? The LA guy said something about 4 pixels? Someone fill in a rookie like myself on this. Is four pixels pretty high? Would the normal person even notice that? -->>>

Bob Zimmerman · May 28th, 2002, 01:31 PM

and like Chris said this is only a problem if using the web,,not TV. My guess to is the problem can be editied.

Chris Hurd · May 28th, 2002, 04:04 PM

First, the zoom motor noise is no worse than any other camcorder in this class. Get the mic off the camera and you won't have this problem.

About the 4-pixel black bar. It's at the edge of the frame. You'll *never* see it on a TV or video monitor. Plenty of other camcorders have this "feature," not just the XL1S. That includes just about anything with Panasonic chips.

This will be an issue if you're doing video for the web or video CD's, material which is viewed on a computer screen.

For material viewed on a TV or a video monitor, it's not an issue because you'll never see it. It's far beyond the action-safe area of the screen, out at the edge of the frame.

Are you producing video for the web or video CD's? Then you'll have to crop the image. Are you producing video to be watched on a TV or video monitor? Then it's not a problem. Hope this helps,

Justin Chin · May 29th, 2002, 12:40 AM

As well as Sony chips.

John Klein · May 29th, 2002, 01:06 AM

Pick either one and you'll still be wondering....what if...?

What's your primary subject matter?

Does the longer canon lens mean anything to you?

I posted something under "settings update" re: contrast and sharpness

ja135321 · May 29th, 2002, 01:08 AM

Hey Justin,

Which Sony chips? because the few that I've tested did not have this problem.

Also, I want everyone to know I'm not out to target Canon's XL1s. I own one so I want everyone to know what they are getting into. Do your research. Or try a friends camera, or rent and check it out with your NLE.

I wish Canon would just fix the problem.

May 25th, 2002, 07:46 AM	#1
Jerry Laurence New Boot Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 17	XL1s vs PD-150: Doing my head in... I've spent far too much time looking into this subject, without being able to make a rational decision. I really like the look and feel of the XL1s but have been somewhat put off by some negative comments about the standard 16x servo lens and contrast handling in particular. Compared with the PD-150, which has had great reviews, the XL1 (original version) does seem soft and too contrasty. However, I like the feel of a bigger camera. Upgrading to manual lens etc. is not an option at present. Please can anyone reassure me that the XL1s, with its manual set-up functions, will enable me to sharpen the image and reduce contrast and thus persuade me not to go for the PD-150 instead? Thanks in advance, Jerry

May 25th, 2002, 02:39 PM	#2
ja135321 Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 90	Canon Problem Hi Jerry, I noticed your post after posting a gripe. I want to inform you about the XL1s before you buy it. I want to let you know what you're getting so you dont get it and find out all the problems I found and wish you bought the other camera. And remember the problems, I have Canon claims that the camera is doing what its supposed to do. 1. Does not display 720x480. (which other cameras do.) With the xl1s you get a black band at the bottom of the frame 4 to 5 pixels high. So, when editing you have to crop which causes resolution loss. Or if you want to post up stills you have to crop. This means you have to always edit and do more work with the material because the camera can't do what it should do. Rather, the techs say its the fault of the computer, because its overscanning. This is funny because I've used about 6 different systems PCs and Macs, with different NLEs and all the same problem. I used footage from a SonyTRV20 and NO PROBLEMO. First of all, The tech said, "during playing, viewing the footage thru the viewfinder, do you see any black bars?" My reply is "No." He said the camera is function fine if you get everything within the viewfinder. (what you see is what you get thru viewfinder) is what he's claiming. This is lame because I dont used the viewfinder, I use an LCD and I see a black band at the bottom 4 pixels high. Besides, who wants to focus with that when you have an LCD? 2. Zoom noise is VERY apparent in quiet situations. I bought the mini mount and isolator, it helps but you can STILL HEAR THE ZOOM NOISE! They said its the way the camera works. Here's my teenagers respones, "whatever." Hey if you want to buy my setup cheap I'll sell it all to you. Its a few months old with all the warranties. I'm switching to Sony.

May 25th, 2002, 06:13 PM	#3
gateway1 Posts: n/a	? Wow,is this true??? I order my XL1s next week. Ive never heard of the first complaint, but have heard a few of the second one about zoom noise. Does anyone else have this problem with the zoom?????

May 27th, 2002, 01:25 AM	#6
ja135321 Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 90	PD-150 yeah the VX2000 is alot cheaper than the XL1s. But they corrected the audio problem with the PD-150, since it has to be broadcast quality.

May 28th, 2002, 04:04 PM	#12
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	First, the zoom motor noise is no worse than any other camcorder in this class. Get the mic off the camera and you won't have this problem. About the 4-pixel black bar. It's at the edge of the frame. You'll never see it on a TV or video monitor. Plenty of other camcorders have this "feature," not just the XL1S. That includes just about anything with Panasonic chips. This will be an issue if you're doing video for the web or video CD's, material which is viewed on a computer screen. For material viewed on a TV or a video monitor, it's not an issue because you'll never see it. It's far beyond the action-safe area of the screen, out at the edge of the frame. Are you producing video for the web or video CD's? Then you'll have to crop the image. Are you producing video to be watched on a TV or video monitor? Then it's not a problem. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 25th, 2002, 08:13 PM	#4
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	gateway, yes it is a problem. See this thread for lots of messages about it. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1743&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

May 26th, 2002, 05:53 AM	#5
Dan C. Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Cheshire, England Posts: 105	However, if you take a look through the vx2000 forum you will notice that many also report the zoom noise problem with that camera.

May 27th, 2002, 10:37 PM	#7
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	How high is a pixel? The LA guy said something about 4 pixels? Someone fill in a rookie like myself on this. Is four pixels pretty high? Would the normal person even notice that?

May 27th, 2002, 10:45 PM	#8
gateway1 Posts: n/a	Im trying to figure that out as well, Im planning on buying a XL1s this week and I need to know if someone with a untrained eye will catch this flaw at the bottom of the image?

May 28th, 2002, 12:37 AM	#9
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	Until both understand what is meant your not really ready to make a decision. JMHO

May 28th, 2002, 06:00 AM	#10
Ted Jan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 36	a single pixel is barely noticeable on a computer screen...unless it's changing colors especially if it's changing colors not in relation to what is going onto the rest of the computer screen... If you ever seen a dead pixel on your computer screen you would know what I mean... however the flaw that the XL1s has is 4 pixels in height and the length of the video, I believe...which I is going to be very noticeable especially if clients of some of the people on the forum can see it. So yes tothe untrain eye, you can see it. <<<-- Originally posted by Zimvg304 : How high is a pixel? The LA guy said something about 4 pixels? Someone fill in a rookie like myself on this. Is four pixels pretty high? Would the normal person even notice that? -->>>

May 28th, 2002, 01:31 PM	#11
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	and like Chris said this is only a problem if using the web,,not TV. My guess to is the problem can be editied.

May 29th, 2002, 12:40 AM	#13
Justin Chin Major Player Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 227	As well as Sony chips. __________________ justin www.monsterrocket.com Filmmaker \| Cinematographer

May 29th, 2002, 01:06 AM	#14
John Klein Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 182	Pick either one and you'll still be wondering....what if...? What's your primary subject matter? Does the longer canon lens mean anything to you? I posted something under "settings update" re: contrast and sharpness __________________ < >< . . . . . < >< . . . . . < ><

May 29th, 2002, 01:08 AM	#15
ja135321 Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 90	Sony Chip Hey Justin, Which Sony chips? because the few that I've tested did not have this problem. Also, I want everyone to know I'm not out to target Canon's XL1s. I own one so I want everyone to know what they are getting into. Do your research. Or try a friends camera, or rent and check it out with your NLE. I wish Canon would just fix the problem.