Xl1S- looks like a kids toy?

James Marcais · January 23rd, 2004, 03:18 AM

People are not going to gauge your level of professional based upon what camera you use.

****
Ok someone has to say it - I buy the biggest baddest cameras, the biggest baddest suits, and the biggest baddest cars. Then I waltz around like I own the place and charge 30% more than everyone else and ya know what? I get the jobs. Go figure.

That is a quote from a shi*ty photographer friend, and we laff that this is part of his actual business plan and it WORKS. People think hey, this guy is serious, look at the size of that thing, look at that starched shirt, we should hire HIM.

Of course this only works to a certain level but it does have it's merits - limited as they are.

Go figure.
James

Adrian Douglas · January 23rd, 2004, 07:01 AM

It would probably only work once and in a saturated market such as photography/video return business is what keeps you going.

Dylan Couper · January 23rd, 2004, 12:24 PM

It probably works the best with people that have never hired a videographer before. It suits the wedding video market perfectly.

Alex Dunn · February 19th, 2004, 04:02 PM

This whole debate is silly. It's like saying a black Hummer is more "impressive" than a red Lamborgini. It's clearly a matter of taste. They are both expensive and stink of wealth, but they drive VERY differently.

Aaron Rosen · February 19th, 2004, 05:13 PM

The hummer is way better. Sure the sports car can outrun it but the hummer can drive over it.

Rick Bravo · February 19th, 2004, 09:29 PM

I guess size DOES matter!

Takeshi Fukushima · February 20th, 2004, 12:32 AM

Looks does matter. or rather Ergonomics does.
I just came back from a 8 day shoot in the warmer parts of Japan, shooting for the official documentary of the Japan Olympic Baseball team. Follow the coach around the different camps, shooting the coaches and players on the field and interviews, etc.

First I was told to shoot with a PD-150. I refused. There is no way I am going to shoot the PD-150 all day long! got out my XL1s + Azden mic as a cam-mic, Sennheiser MKH-416 (external mic) + Canon x16 servo lens, + Canon x3 short zoom lens, + Canon MA-100(I still do not see too much use for the MA-200. will make the package too big.) + Endura 80 batteries (one battery last a whole day of shooting plus preview! One less thing to worry about) IDX camera light. Used 16 bit audio, L-ch. Azden cam-mic and R-ch MKH-416 which was held by the director. The 416 kept capturing the voice while the camera moved around. We tried using a wireless so that we can totally move around independantly, but there was a risk of the sound being taken by other tv stations, so we stayed cabled. We got to go every where in the stadium where other cameras where not able too. Does anyone know if there is a way to secrately go wireless and not be noticed?

I do shoot alot with the PD-150, or DVX-100, I'd have to admit they have better quality being newer cameras, but for run and gun shootings like this one, if I cannot shoot with a proper ENG camera, I'd definitely go with the XL-1. In some case when all the media huddle up for an quick interview, it's rather much more easier to lift up the xl1 than an beta camera above the heads of journalists. While the DVX-100 has better image color, the XL1 has more stable shots. Even if the image has great colour, wouldn't be usable if it was shaking all the time.

In the bull pin, shooting pitchers, the x16 servo works really good, though it would be nice to have manual zoom control, the image stabilizer keeps the image really steady. While the ENG cameras where all shooting long from a tripod, I was shooting off my shoulder. (Unfortunately I do not have the manual lens yet, but the servo x16 has it's advantages. I wonder if I can get canon to sponsor a shoot like this... I wouldn't mind haveing to carry around an extra manual lens : ) ...) x3 short zoom lens was also great. much wider than the DVX-100, 4.5mm (the PD-150 6.5mm!! is just out of the question) I like shooting without a wide convertor so the short zoom is always great.

The drawback for the xl1 is control of iris. This was the only time I felt I'd rather have a proper beta-cam. There are alot of contrast on the basebal field, and you just cannot move the iris quick enough. The dial only goes 4 or 5 stops in a time... This was sort of a drag. Auto Iris does not get the exact EXP. value that I want when I want it.

The shoot has been really good so far, hope to keep shooting with an xl1 or two, or three. It did feel good to see the XL1 on the evening news amongst all the bulky BEta cams. Hope this could wake up some of the XL1 users in Japan. I wouldn' mind a little help from canon for the production.

Takeshi
Fukushima

Norman Woo · February 20th, 2004, 10:20 AM

Folks

I recently attended a local press conference where I carried in a fully loaded XL1 and tripod. Without batting an eye, the security guy waved me through. Behind me was my partner carrying in a Sony PD150. Guard refused to let him through even though he showed him his press credentials.

On the negative side, I was on vacation with my family over at Canada's Wonderland Park (Toronto). I brought my XL1 with me. I was taping an aquatic show when one of the security person walked up to me and said which TV station I was from and that I was not allowed to tape the event and that I needed a permit, even though everyone around me with their little camcorders had no problem. It took a while before I convinced her that it's for personal use. "But sir that it rather a big camera" is all I remember her saying .... (hahaha)

Norman Woo · February 20th, 2004, 10:35 AM

Folks

I use both the XL1 (and getting the XL2 once it comes out) and the Sony PD-150.

In weddings, I exclusively use the XLI with the 1.5 extender with the standard lens. With the MA100 and image stabilization, I can get extreme closeups with no shakes at all. Clients are extremely happy and wonder how I am able to get such tight stable shots at all. With the PD-150, forget it ... I use the PD150 mainly at receptions as it beats the XL1 for low-ight shots.

Same goes for sports events, I'm able to shoulder mount the XL1 and get tight extreme shots (these are the money-making shots) where even the Betacam folks cannot get. For example, during last years Montreal Dragon Boat races, I was able to get tight shots (1,5 XL extender with the normal 16X lens) of the rowers' arms showing the intensity and excitement. The Betaceam shots my friends were doing couldn't even get half as close without shaking all over (they are quite heavy, so shoulder mounting them is quite a feat).

By the way, anyone try to use 2 1.5 Extenders at the same time? I'll rent an extra one for my next shoot and see it goes before purchasing one.

Norman Woo · February 20th, 2004, 10:41 AM

Folks

I'm on a roll here ...

Another thing I forgot to mention is that I shoot everything (wedding, sports, etc.) in FRAME mode. Even the local TV station has no problem accepting this.

It DOES look different.

I don't want to get into all this in this forum. If you want more information on the "film look" head over to the "Towards a film look using DV" part of the forum ...

Alex Dunn · February 20th, 2004, 10:48 AM

I'm with you Norman! But I still say this thread is pointless. We're not even talking about the original subject anymore. The question was: "Does the XL1 look like a toy?"

I think the answer is a big... NO!!

Chris Hurd · February 20th, 2004, 11:05 AM

Frankly, I've always thought it looked like a chainsaw.

Takeshi Fukushima -- thanks for a great report!

Norman Woo · February 20th, 2004, 12:27 PM

I re-read the posts here and I will add in my vote. No, it's NOT a toy and folks who do approach me have all given their thumbs up.

Kevin Burnfield · February 20th, 2004, 02:00 PM

I've seen this thread from time to time and pretty much avoided it but thought I'd break down and give my 3 cents.

Just from a non-professional, first impression point of view the XL1S wins hands down.

When you see cameras like the PD100 people only see what looks like something the same shape and such as their home video camera--- the XL1S doesn't look like any home video camera.

This was actually one of the final items that made my choice for me, I would have hated to show up and shoot part of a British TV Documentary with what looked like a handi-cam---

No offence to the innards of the other cameras but I really think that some of these other manufacturers need to rethink this sort of thing. When you show up on a commercial shoot you want to client to be impressed not look at the camera and think "god, I could have gotten my nephew herbie to shoot this..."

Mike Doyle · February 20th, 2004, 02:23 PM

I was collecting b-roll of the Hollywood-Highland complex, the Kodak Theatre and Mann's (Grauman's) Chinese Theatre with my XL-1s and was shooed from each venue by security guards. I enlisted the aid of a friend who lives in LA and owns a PD150. Since I shoot better than he, we traded cameras and went back to Hollywood. I had him mimic the shots I was doing but placed him 10 feet from me. Sure enough, he was quickly told he could not shoot in the area but no one approached me.
Does the Canon XL-1s look different from other small DV cameras? Yes.
Does it look like a toy? Apparently, not to people outside the video business.

In a few weeks I may do another test. This time using a Betacam SP rig and the XL-1.

January 23rd, 2004, 07:01 AM	#17
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	It would probably only work once and in a saturated market such as photography/video return business is what keeps you going. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

January 23rd, 2004, 12:24 PM	#18
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	It probably works the best with people that have never hired a videographer before. It suits the wedding video market perfectly. __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

February 19th, 2004, 09:29 PM	#21
Rick Bravo Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 574	I guess size DOES matter! __________________ "The future ain't what it used to be." Yogi Berra. www.rbravo.com

February 20th, 2004, 11:05 AM	#27
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Frankly, I've always thought it looked like a chainsaw. Takeshi Fukushima -- thanks for a great report! __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 20th, 2004, 02:23 PM	#30
Mike Doyle Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 32	Toy? I was collecting b-roll of the Hollywood-Highland complex, the Kodak Theatre and Mann's (Grauman's) Chinese Theatre with my XL-1s and was shooed from each venue by security guards. I enlisted the aid of a friend who lives in LA and owns a PD150. Since I shoot better than he, we traded cameras and went back to Hollywood. I had him mimic the shots I was doing but placed him 10 feet from me. Sure enough, he was quickly told he could not shoot in the area but no one approached me. Does the Canon XL-1s look different from other small DV cameras? Yes. Does it look like a toy? Apparently, not to people outside the video business. In a few weeks I may do another test. This time using a Betacam SP rig and the XL-1.

January 23rd, 2004, 03:18 AM	#16
James Marcais New Boot Join Date: May 2003 Location: Seattle Posts: 5	People are not going to gauge your level of professional based upon what camera you use. **** Ok someone has to say it - I buy the biggest baddest cameras, the biggest baddest suits, and the biggest baddest cars. Then I waltz around like I own the place and charge 30% more than everyone else and ya know what? I get the jobs. Go figure. That is a quote from a shi*ty photographer friend, and we laff that this is part of his actual business plan and it WORKS. People think hey, this guy is serious, look at the size of that thing, look at that starched shirt, we should hire HIM. Of course this only works to a certain level but it does have it's merits - limited as they are. Go figure. James

February 19th, 2004, 04:02 PM	#19
Alex Dunn Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 202	This whole debate is silly. It's like saying a black Hummer is more "impressive" than a red Lamborgini. It's clearly a matter of taste. They are both expensive and stink of wealth, but they drive VERY differently.

February 19th, 2004, 05:13 PM	#20
Aaron Rosen Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: HB, CA - USA Posts: 298	The hummer is way better. Sure the sports car can outrun it but the hummer can drive over it.

February 20th, 2004, 12:32 AM	#22
Takeshi Fukushima Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 86	Looks does matter. or rather Ergonomics does. I just came back from a 8 day shoot in the warmer parts of Japan, shooting for the official documentary of the Japan Olympic Baseball team. Follow the coach around the different camps, shooting the coaches and players on the field and interviews, etc. First I was told to shoot with a PD-150. I refused. There is no way I am going to shoot the PD-150 all day long! got out my XL1s + Azden mic as a cam-mic, Sennheiser MKH-416 (external mic) + Canon x16 servo lens, + Canon x3 short zoom lens, + Canon MA-100(I still do not see too much use for the MA-200. will make the package too big.) + Endura 80 batteries (one battery last a whole day of shooting plus preview! One less thing to worry about) IDX camera light. Used 16 bit audio, L-ch. Azden cam-mic and R-ch MKH-416 which was held by the director. The 416 kept capturing the voice while the camera moved around. We tried using a wireless so that we can totally move around independantly, but there was a risk of the sound being taken by other tv stations, so we stayed cabled. We got to go every where in the stadium where other cameras where not able too. Does anyone know if there is a way to secrately go wireless and not be noticed? I do shoot alot with the PD-150, or DVX-100, I'd have to admit they have better quality being newer cameras, but for run and gun shootings like this one, if I cannot shoot with a proper ENG camera, I'd definitely go with the XL-1. In some case when all the media huddle up for an quick interview, it's rather much more easier to lift up the xl1 than an beta camera above the heads of journalists. While the DVX-100 has better image color, the XL1 has more stable shots. Even if the image has great colour, wouldn't be usable if it was shaking all the time. In the bull pin, shooting pitchers, the x16 servo works really good, though it would be nice to have manual zoom control, the image stabilizer keeps the image really steady. While the ENG cameras where all shooting long from a tripod, I was shooting off my shoulder. (Unfortunately I do not have the manual lens yet, but the servo x16 has it's advantages. I wonder if I can get canon to sponsor a shoot like this... I wouldn't mind haveing to carry around an extra manual lens : ) ...) x3 short zoom lens was also great. much wider than the DVX-100, 4.5mm (the PD-150 6.5mm!! is just out of the question) I like shooting without a wide convertor so the short zoom is always great. The drawback for the xl1 is control of iris. This was the only time I felt I'd rather have a proper beta-cam. There are alot of contrast on the basebal field, and you just cannot move the iris quick enough. The dial only goes 4 or 5 stops in a time... This was sort of a drag. Auto Iris does not get the exact EXP. value that I want when I want it. The shoot has been really good so far, hope to keep shooting with an xl1 or two, or three. It did feel good to see the XL1 on the evening news amongst all the bulky BEta cams. Hope this could wake up some of the XL1 users in Japan. I wouldn' mind a little help from canon for the production. Takeshi Fukushima

February 20th, 2004, 10:20 AM	#23
Norman Woo Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brossard, Quebec, Canada Posts: 147	Folks I recently attended a local press conference where I carried in a fully loaded XL1 and tripod. Without batting an eye, the security guy waved me through. Behind me was my partner carrying in a Sony PD150. Guard refused to let him through even though he showed him his press credentials. On the negative side, I was on vacation with my family over at Canada's Wonderland Park (Toronto). I brought my XL1 with me. I was taping an aquatic show when one of the security person walked up to me and said which TV station I was from and that I was not allowed to tape the event and that I needed a permit, even though everyone around me with their little camcorders had no problem. It took a while before I convinced her that it's for personal use. "But sir that it rather a big camera" is all I remember her saying .... (hahaha)

February 20th, 2004, 10:35 AM	#24
Norman Woo Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brossard, Quebec, Canada Posts: 147	Folks I use both the XL1 (and getting the XL2 once it comes out) and the Sony PD-150. In weddings, I exclusively use the XLI with the 1.5 extender with the standard lens. With the MA100 and image stabilization, I can get extreme closeups with no shakes at all. Clients are extremely happy and wonder how I am able to get such tight stable shots at all. With the PD-150, forget it ... I use the PD150 mainly at receptions as it beats the XL1 for low-ight shots. Same goes for sports events, I'm able to shoulder mount the XL1 and get tight extreme shots (these are the money-making shots) where even the Betacam folks cannot get. For example, during last years Montreal Dragon Boat races, I was able to get tight shots (1,5 XL extender with the normal 16X lens) of the rowers' arms showing the intensity and excitement. The Betaceam shots my friends were doing couldn't even get half as close without shaking all over (they are quite heavy, so shoulder mounting them is quite a feat). By the way, anyone try to use 2 1.5 Extenders at the same time? I'll rent an extra one for my next shoot and see it goes before purchasing one.

February 20th, 2004, 10:41 AM	#25
Norman Woo Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brossard, Quebec, Canada Posts: 147	Folks I'm on a roll here ... Another thing I forgot to mention is that I shoot everything (wedding, sports, etc.) in FRAME mode. Even the local TV station has no problem accepting this. It DOES look different. I don't want to get into all this in this forum. If you want more information on the "film look" head over to the "Towards a film look using DV" part of the forum ...

February 20th, 2004, 10:48 AM	#26
Alex Dunn Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 202	I'm with you Norman! But I still say this thread is pointless. We're not even talking about the original subject anymore. The question was: "Does the XL1 look like a toy?" I think the answer is a big... NO!!

February 20th, 2004, 12:27 PM	#28
Norman Woo Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brossard, Quebec, Canada Posts: 147	I re-read the posts here and I will add in my vote. No, it's NOT a toy and folks who do approach me have all given their thumbs up.

February 20th, 2004, 02:00 PM	#29
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	I've seen this thread from time to time and pretty much avoided it but thought I'd break down and give my 3 cents. Just from a non-professional, first impression point of view the XL1S wins hands down. When you see cameras like the PD100 people only see what looks like something the same shape and such as their home video camera--- the XL1S doesn't look like any home video camera. This was actually one of the final items that made my choice for me, I would have hated to show up and shoot part of a British TV Documentary with what looked like a handi-cam--- No offence to the innards of the other cameras but I really think that some of these other manufacturers need to rethink this sort of thing. When you show up on a commercial shoot you want to client to be impressed not look at the camera and think "god, I could have gotten my nephew herbie to shoot this..."