Lense zoom noise on XL1s at DVinfo.net

Kairat Salikhov · May 3rd, 2002, 02:51 AM

hi there,
I know guys that this topic was disscussed already.

I just to confirm that even with all noise reduction stuff from lightwave, I got them all, noise is still there when on manual mode for audio and gain at max with regular canon mic.

Any other ideas how to further reduce noise?

Adrian Douglas · May 3rd, 2002, 06:19 AM

I've never found the zoom noise to be a problem. Sure it's there but only if you zoom like a madman during a quiet, almost silent shot. If it bothers you don't use the onboard mic. It's not a pro mic or a pro camera for that matter, so you'll have to expect some compromises.

Kairat Salikhov · May 3rd, 2002, 06:31 PM

well in this case you get what you pay for.

Chris Hurd · May 3rd, 2002, 07:28 PM

I must agree with Adrian, if your shooting environment is so very quiet that you can still hear this noise, then you really need to get the mic off of the camera completely. The worst place to put a mic is on the camera anyway. Most pro's would handle your situation by taking audio anywhere else but on the camera. Hope this helps,

Adrian Douglas · May 4th, 2002, 06:44 AM

That's exactly right Kairat,

I think sometimes people forget that the XL1 isn't a $30000 Beta SP rig or a 35mm Arri. It's a $4000 Prosumer camera. It's a bloody good camera and give fantastic bang for your buck, but you have to have reasonable expectations of it. Sure it's not perfect(i.e. the banding problem currently under discussion in another thread) but it does a good job of what it's designed to do and then some.

As Chris said, if you're shooting in extremely quiet situations, use an external mic and either a DAT/MD or run it into the MA100/200 or a Beechtec etc.

ja135321 · May 6th, 2002, 10:13 PM

I don't necessarily agree with some of your statements claiming that its not a 30k pro camera. In my opinion I have a 200.00 handycam that doesnt make noise when you zoom. And none of the Sony cameras I've ever used had a zoom noise problem. Its only THIS Canon XL1s camera thats got a zoom noise problem. I think its a design flaw more than anything. And when you people keep telling us people about the environment being so quiet, I have the stereo going on in the background and I can still hear the zoom noise. But I have tried the 3x lense on the camera and have zoomed successfully without noise. I think that 16x auto lense must be crap. Its very loud.

Ken Tanaka · May 6th, 2002, 10:46 PM

The 16x auto lens is certainly not "crap". But the 180 deg field stereo mic's placement is unfortunate with respect to the position of the lens' servo motor. I've always gotten a soft whoosh when starting a zoom-out, although it's not audible in a noisy shot.

The solution, as others have noted here and elsewhere, is either to use an external mic or to use a good shotgun mounted to a LightWave isolator. Personally, I use an external mic whenever possible.

Chris Hurd · May 6th, 2002, 11:22 PM

Ken, the problem in this case is that the LightWave isolator is *already* employed and the poster is complaining that there is still noise from the lens. In my opinion it might be an unusually loud zoom motor, as I don't think this is the norm.

Adrian Douglas · May 7th, 2002, 06:19 AM

I was talking to my friend today who uses a Sony VX1000 and he said he sometimes gets zoom noise from his camera too. Ok, so your camera could have an unusually loud motor, but with any on camera mic there's going to be some amount of mechanical noise. Remember this is a mass produced camera and therefore the tolerances aren't as close as we would like. It's a bit like comparing a Ford Mustang with a Jaguar. The Mustang is a beautiful high performance car but it dosen't have the refinement or build quality of the Jag.

The reason you probably don't get noise on your $200.00 camera is because it most likely has a low quality mic that wouldn't pick up a 747 from 30ft away. I'd be pretty safe to say that the audio from your $200.00 camera dosen't come close to what the XL1 is capable of. If it does, then I'll consider myself told.

As for the "crap" lens, it's a simple decision, if you don't like it, sell it. There's other options out there. I've been using the 16x IS lens since 99 and although it's not perfect, it's far from crap.

Kairat Salikhov · May 7th, 2002, 07:12 AM

Today I'll try it with ME66 at store and see how noise is going to be present with this mic. Though I kinda doubt that canon mike is more sensitive to sound. I think that this vibration from zoom motor of the lense gets thru all of the rubber pieces both on extender and isolator of lightwave pieces. I think that they should have used a softer rubber cause the one they use still passes on the vibration up to the mic.

My guess is that me66 is more sensitive than canon mic, and if so it should get even more noise.

Aaron Koolen · May 7th, 2002, 02:52 PM

Is this a lens problem, or a camera body problem? (Sorry I don't have an xl1s to know). If one purchased the full manual lens (That still has servo controls) would this eliminate the problem? i.e. Does the 16x full manual lens have a better/quieter motor system (Assuming it is the lens' problem after all)

Cheers
Aaron

Dan C. · May 7th, 2002, 03:13 PM

This problem would not occur on the 16x manual lens as it is not servo operated. The noise that can be heard with the auto lens is the servo operating.

Aaron Koolen · May 7th, 2002, 03:38 PM

Dan, my understanding is that the full manual lens does have a servo option. It's not an auto servo, you use the buttons to move it, but it's there. Everywhere I've read said you can switch it on to servo.

If this is true, then my question stands - Is the servo on the 16x Full manual quieter?

Cheers
Aaron

Kairat Salikhov · May 7th, 2002, 03:47 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Ken, the problem in this case is that the LightWave isolator is *already* employed and the poster is complaining that there is still noise from the lens. In my opinion it might be an unusually loud zoom motor, as I don't think this is the norm. -->>>

Chris, do you think, assuming that not everything made equal, I got noisy servos on my 16x auto lense?
I'm planing to shoot a newsreel in my country in green room. I must be quite to get clear sound.
So now I only have option of removing the mike and using it as offboard mic. So, I guess I need to test it how bad is zooming going to make it to the feed without all of the lightwave stuff that I bought and installed on the camera. Never did it, since I got camcorder and lightwave things at the same time.

I know that I need one set of wireless mics and handheld. I was planing to use a me66 mic for interviews on the street, where some little ambient sound shall make it to the feed, as I want an atmosfiere to it. Or weddings and such, where I'll have to work with on board mic and set of wireless handheld. Just as a back up I wanted to have a mic on a camcorder, in case something wrong goes with a handheld. And I want to keep sound synced to the frames so I wont have to deal with sync later in post production. Just to ease up the whole process.
Summer's coming and it shall be fun on seashore, as it where my town is located.

Kairat Salikhov

PS. Chris could you please move this topic to sound and mic forum, sorry my bad that I mistakenly opened up this topic here.

Don Palomaki · May 7th, 2002, 04:19 PM

I believe that the ME66/K6 combination is a lot hotter than the standard XL1 mic. Use the ME66 on the camera and your servo noise (and operator breathing for that matter) maybe higher depending on exact positioning and the mics side lobes.

If you can, check another XL1 16x lens and see if the reults are similar. Also, be sure that the mic mount scres si nto too tight. if too tight it will over compress the rubber and couple vibration to the mic body.

And which model is your handicam with the great sound?

May 3rd, 2002, 02:51 AM	#1
Kairat Salikhov Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kazakhstan - USA Posts: 32	Lense zoom noise on XL1s hi there, I know guys that this topic was disscussed already. I just to confirm that even with all noise reduction stuff from lightwave, I got them all, noise is still there when on manual mode for audio and gain at max with regular canon mic. Any other ideas how to further reduce noise?

May 3rd, 2002, 06:19 AM	#2
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	I've never found the zoom noise to be a problem. Sure it's there but only if you zoom like a madman during a quiet, almost silent shot. If it bothers you don't use the onboard mic. It's not a pro mic or a pro camera for that matter, so you'll have to expect some compromises. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

May 3rd, 2002, 07:28 PM	#4
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	I must agree with Adrian, if your shooting environment is so very quiet that you can still hear this noise, then you really need to get the mic off of the camera completely. The worst place to put a mic is on the camera anyway. Most pro's would handle your situation by taking audio anywhere else but on the camera. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 4th, 2002, 06:44 AM	#5
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	That's exactly right Kairat, I think sometimes people forget that the XL1 isn't a $30000 Beta SP rig or a 35mm Arri. It's a $4000 Prosumer camera. It's a bloody good camera and give fantastic bang for your buck, but you have to have reasonable expectations of it. Sure it's not perfect(i.e. the banding problem currently under discussion in another thread) but it does a good job of what it's designed to do and then some. As Chris said, if you're shooting in extremely quiet situations, use an external mic and either a DAT/MD or run it into the MA100/200 or a Beechtec etc. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

May 6th, 2002, 10:13 PM	#6
ja135321 Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 90	uh yeah but... I don't necessarily agree with some of your statements claiming that its not a 30k pro camera. In my opinion I have a 200.00 handycam that doesnt make noise when you zoom. And none of the Sony cameras I've ever used had a zoom noise problem. Its only THIS Canon XL1s camera thats got a zoom noise problem. I think its a design flaw more than anything. And when you people keep telling us people about the environment being so quiet, I have the stereo going on in the background and I can still hear the zoom noise. But I have tried the 3x lense on the camera and have zoomed successfully without noise. I think that 16x auto lense must be crap. Its very loud.

May 3rd, 2002, 06:31 PM	#3
Kairat Salikhov Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kazakhstan - USA Posts: 32	well in this case you get what you pay for.

May 6th, 2002, 10:46 PM	#7
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	The 16x auto lens is certainly not "crap". But the 180 deg field stereo mic's placement is unfortunate with respect to the position of the lens' servo motor. I've always gotten a soft whoosh when starting a zoom-out, although it's not audible in a noisy shot. The solution, as others have noted here and elsewhere, is either to use an external mic or to use a good shotgun mounted to a LightWave isolator. Personally, I use an external mic whenever possible. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

May 6th, 2002, 11:22 PM	#8
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Ken, the problem in this case is that the LightWave isolator is already employed and the poster is complaining that there is still noise from the lens. In my opinion it might be an unusually loud zoom motor, as I don't think this is the norm. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 7th, 2002, 06:19 AM	#9
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	I was talking to my friend today who uses a Sony VX1000 and he said he sometimes gets zoom noise from his camera too. Ok, so your camera could have an unusually loud motor, but with any on camera mic there's going to be some amount of mechanical noise. Remember this is a mass produced camera and therefore the tolerances aren't as close as we would like. It's a bit like comparing a Ford Mustang with a Jaguar. The Mustang is a beautiful high performance car but it dosen't have the refinement or build quality of the Jag. The reason you probably don't get noise on your $200.00 camera is because it most likely has a low quality mic that wouldn't pick up a 747 from 30ft away. I'd be pretty safe to say that the audio from your $200.00 camera dosen't come close to what the XL1 is capable of. If it does, then I'll consider myself told. As for the "crap" lens, it's a simple decision, if you don't like it, sell it. There's other options out there. I've been using the 16x IS lens since 99 and although it's not perfect, it's far from crap. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

May 7th, 2002, 07:12 AM	#10
Kairat Salikhov Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kazakhstan - USA Posts: 32	Today I'll try it with ME66 at store and see how noise is going to be present with this mic. Though I kinda doubt that canon mike is more sensitive to sound. I think that this vibration from zoom motor of the lense gets thru all of the rubber pieces both on extender and isolator of lightwave pieces. I think that they should have used a softer rubber cause the one they use still passes on the vibration up to the mic. My guess is that me66 is more sensitive than canon mic, and if so it should get even more noise.

May 7th, 2002, 02:52 PM	#11
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Is this a lens problem, or a camera body problem? (Sorry I don't have an xl1s to know). If one purchased the full manual lens (That still has servo controls) would this eliminate the problem? i.e. Does the 16x full manual lens have a better/quieter motor system (Assuming it is the lens' problem after all) Cheers Aaron

May 7th, 2002, 03:13 PM	#12
Dan C. Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Cheshire, England Posts: 105	This problem would not occur on the 16x manual lens as it is not servo operated. The noise that can be heard with the auto lens is the servo operating.

May 7th, 2002, 03:38 PM	#13
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Dan, my understanding is that the full manual lens does have a servo option. It's not an auto servo, you use the buttons to move it, but it's there. Everywhere I've read said you can switch it on to servo. If this is true, then my question stands - Is the servo on the 16x Full manual quieter? Cheers Aaron

May 7th, 2002, 03:47 PM	#14
Kairat Salikhov Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kazakhstan - USA Posts: 32	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Ken, the problem in this case is that the LightWave isolator is already employed and the poster is complaining that there is still noise from the lens. In my opinion it might be an unusually loud zoom motor, as I don't think this is the norm. -->>> Chris, do you think, assuming that not everything made equal, I got noisy servos on my 16x auto lense? I'm planing to shoot a newsreel in my country in green room. I must be quite to get clear sound. So now I only have option of removing the mike and using it as offboard mic. So, I guess I need to test it how bad is zooming going to make it to the feed without all of the lightwave stuff that I bought and installed on the camera. Never did it, since I got camcorder and lightwave things at the same time. I know that I need one set of wireless mics and handheld. I was planing to use a me66 mic for interviews on the street, where some little ambient sound shall make it to the feed, as I want an atmosfiere to it. Or weddings and such, where I'll have to work with on board mic and set of wireless handheld. Just as a back up I wanted to have a mic on a camcorder, in case something wrong goes with a handheld. And I want to keep sound synced to the frames so I wont have to deal with sync later in post production. Just to ease up the whole process. Summer's coming and it shall be fun on seashore, as it where my town is located. Kairat Salikhov PS. Chris could you please move this topic to sound and mic forum, sorry my bad that I mistakenly opened up this topic here.

May 7th, 2002, 04:19 PM	#15
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,489	I believe that the ME66/K6 combination is a lot hotter than the standard XL1 mic. Use the ME66 on the camera and your servo noise (and operator breathing for that matter) maybe higher depending on exact positioning and the mics side lobes. If you can, check another XL1 16x lens and see if the reults are similar. Also, be sure that the mic mount scres si nto too tight. if too tight it will over compress the rubber and couple vibration to the mic body. And which model is your handicam with the great sound?