XL1S imaging problem/question

I'm quite sure the'll show up on transfer to beta.
The problem is probably created before the video is recorded to tape.

Im a bit shocked, why do you guys even own this camera if the image is flawed with a black bar on the bottom of the picture? I mean, how can you do any kind of work whether it be a commercial or a short film or anything that requires somone to look at your footage?

Damn, and I was a few days from getting a XL1s, guess I'd better do some rethinking. I'd hate to crop the bars out of my footage in post for all of that.

Personally, I hate the black bar at the bottom in post, it bugs me more than anything. I just picked up a PD-150 and the 720x480 image in After Effects is clean edge to edge, top to bottom. However, I have shot several commercials for local television with my XL1s and the black bar at the bottom has never been an issue for me. I can only see the bar in an After Effects composition or if I set my NTSC monitor to underscan but once it's turned off, it can't be seen.

Donbarzini or Chris or anyone who has contributed to this thread:

Ok, now Im confused.

Do you see the black bar on your footage or is it unnoticeable to the untrained eye?

[Ken Tanaka]

As noted many, many times in this thread...

You will not see the lines on an NTSC monitor or other device that underscans. You -will- see it on full-frame digital playback.

[ja135321]

Lets all understand one thing here. I assumed miniDV is came about so that we can digitally edit stuff. So we can open the doors of NLE. Ok, now that we got that straight. Using any other camera besides the XL1s you dont get bars at the bottom of the TRUE FULL FRAME of 720x480. What does this mean? Well a normal NSTC monitor or TV in the USA does not show the whole frame. It actually chops it out. But if you do any type of streaming web work or DVD format of 720X480 you will definately see the bars from your computer, because it will display the full frame. If you capture stills you'll see the bars because the computer displays full frame. What I dont understand is that if miniDV is a format so we can digitally edit movies, why does Canon design a flawed camera? Why dont they just correct the problem rather than saying its not a problem?

[Rob Lohman]

For the people that do not understand the problem: there is a few
pixels high black line at the bottom of the frame. This is not a
problem when:

- Your output is for TV use only
- You crop your output (to add black bars for example, as I do)
to make it widescreen

You might not have a problem:

- if you do not care about a two - four pixel high black line. I know
I don't personally. If I download a quicktime movie and there is
a little black line at the bottom I'd probably not even notice it
(especially not if I'm playing it full screen)
- if you go DVD. Although these might be played on a computer
too, they 99% of the time are played full screen. You won't notice
the black bar because it will blend in the with the tiny little black
line that is already surrounding your monitor/lcd
- picture in picture effects. But since these will be resized and
probably cropped you might nog have a problem. Besides, you
might be adding a little border to seperate the image from the
background one

When you do have a problem:

well... this seems to be a personal thing. I'm not bothered by
it personally. But then again, it should be fixed anyway because
it just should not be there. Maybe someone should post a full
resolution jpg/bmp file that shows the defect cleary (white wall
footage??) so that all who are in doubt of getting this camera
can see for themselves first hand.

I hope I haven't stepped on any toes here, that is not my
intention! This is just solely my opinion and what I think about
the problem and possible solutions.

Thank you.

Great idea about posting the pic with the flaw Rob, thanks for clearing things up for all of us dullards out there!

I think someone posted a still image with the bar, but what would be better is if someone shot some footage and the put it in quicktime or realplayer and posted it on here.

just an idea

[Ron Transco]

My XL1s also has the black bar at the bottom. I was wondering, has anyone sent their camera to Canon and had it come back sans black bar? No sense taking the camera out of service for weeks just to have it returned with the problem remaining. From what I read in this thread, it would seem the black bar is just a fact of life. If I had known, I'd never have purchased the camera.

[Ken Tanaka]

Ron,
I've not seen anyone remark that this is something that Canon service has fixed for them. In fact, just the contrary. It looks as if Canon considers this acceptable and within the camera's design specification. In my opinion, someone made the assumption that "prosumers" would either never notice this flaw or would never cause trouble if they did notice it.

Many of us are disappointed. Personally, I love many aspects of the camera's design. But I'll be damned if I'll buy another Canon video camera if they continue to stonewall this issue. (Of course, since I already have 6 Canon probably couldn't care less <g>.)

[Rob Lohman]

I have put up some footage from my camera. Picture in jpeg
and bitmap format and a the same footage in a 2 second
PAL dv movie (was only allowed to upload 5 mb per file).

http://www.geocities.com/robvisuar/dv.htm

[Chris Ward]

While I certainly agree that Canon should fix this problem, I must say that in the whole sceme of things it is quite insignificant. No layperson is going to look at the very bottom of the screen. Its well below title safety so it can be used for professional work and you'd never see it when transferring to film. Furthermore, this is a rather inexpensive prosumer camcorder. Step up to a shoulder mounted professional camera like the Sony dsr-500 if you really expect perfection.

[Chris Hurd]

I'm forced to agree with Chris Ward (by the way Chris are you going to ShowBiz Expo in L.A. next weekend).

Long story short: as outlined above: this thing is *not* a problem if you're doing NTSC or PAL video. You'll never see it on a TV or video monitor; the black bar is at the edge of the frame and far outside the safe area.

It definitely *is* an issue if you're doing video for the web or CD. It *can* be seen at the edge of the frame on a computer monitor. You'll have to crop and re-size if you want to get rid of it.

The XL1S is not the only camcorder to exhibit this, nor is Canon the only manufacturer who has camcorders which exhibit this. And it is a product of the Panasonic CCD's used in these camcorders.

Most likely, Canon will position itself with the "this is not a bug, it's a feature" stance, as it is not something which can be altered by the Service Dept.

Please do not think I'm "apologizing" for Canon. I am not. I'm just telling you realistically what to expect. Hopefully I'll have something solid to relate back after ShowBiz Expo next weekend (June 1-3). That's the next time I get to see the guys from Canon USA. Hope this helps,

Ummm, so Chris.

If I shoot and take my footage from the camera to Avid, and make a Beta copy as well as a vhs copy, then you wont be able to see the flaw on the final product?

[Rob Lohman]

Correct.