XL1S imaging problem/question

[Ken Tanaka]

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Ward : While I certainly agree that Canon should fix this problem, I must say that in the whole sceme of things it is quite insignificant. No layperson is going to look at the very bottom of the screen. Its well below title safety so it can be used for professional work and you'd never see it when transferring to film. Furthermore, this is a rather inexpensive prosumer camcorder. Step up to a shoulder mounted professional camera like the Sony dsr-500 if you really expect perfection. -->>>

Huh?! No, no, no, Chris. Certainly, it's true that these lines will not appear on a tv screening. But the streaming market is a big one for Canon and it's direct competitors; perhaps the biggest market in this class of camera. To that end, these lines certainly can be a significant factor during compression since they present the compressor with a static band of flat color.

"Furthermore, this is a rather inexpensive prosumer camcorder. Step up to a shoulder mounted professional camera like the Sony dsr-500 if you really expect perfection. " I'll just bet that you didn't copy that text from a footnote on one of Canon's advertisements. So a Sony DSR-500 is "perfection", eh? Well, we wouldn't have to go that far to escape this little problem. We'd only have to move to the XL1s' closest competitor, the Sony DSR-PD150.

Chris, this may not be a significant problem for -you- or for -me-. But it -is- a significant problem for many current and prospective buyers of Canon's top-of-the-line video camera. Furthermore, it's a problem endemic to Canon's 3-chip cameras (my GL1's footage looks like I shot it from a prison cell, with thick vertical bars on both sides) and one that they've taken a bet on.

There is a small army of eager beaver trade and consumer electronics journalists out there just starving for their next 1,000 word payday. It's probably time to give them a whiff of this meat.

[Chris Ward]

I still don't see this as a serious problem. Ken, I think you're over-reacting to what is basically a minor flaw in an otherwise outstanding consumer camcorder. As for the pd-150, I've used it professionally with decent results, but I like the picture of the XL-1(s) much better. However, neither unit is in the same league as a true professional camera like the Sony dsr-500/570. Of course, that would cost four to five times as much... BTW - I've also used the GL-1 with very good results: Never saw any "prison bars".

Now, as for the consumer electronic journalists, I happen to be one myself and I could care less about this "meat".

[Ken Tanaka]

Chris,

I, too, like my XL1, my XL1s and even my GL1. I don't regret buying them. For my current purposes they serve me well. But with respect to this design/manufacturing flaw I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree as gentlemen on this subject.

What publication(s) do you write for, Chris?

[Chris Ward]

Fair enough. I write for Videography magazine. In fact, you can read my article about using a bodyjib in their May issue, and I'll have a hands-on article about the XL1s (with the manual servo lens) some time this summer.

[Ken Tanaka]

Ahh! I thought your name seemed familiar. Indeed, I am a subscriber to Videography (just received a new issue today, in fact). In fact, I very much like the magazine, Chris. Good to see you here.


Best Regards,

[Chris Hurd]

Chris Ward's documentary "Outwitting Hitler," shot with an XL1, GL1 and PD150, ran nationwide on Showtime last year.

I didn't think I'd be looking for answers like this so soon after spending so much on a camera that I thought would be near perfect in its class. Oh well, I sure have them now!

Just for the record, I'm using a PAL XL1S and I use a Mac for capture and edit and yes, I too have the black bar problem at the bottom of the frame. It's not as bad as some of the frame grabs I've seen posted - just a 1 pixel-high bar extending halfway from the right to the middle of the frame. This then joins to a 1 pixel-high pale bar extending from the middle to the left frame edge. Same style as you other guys are getting, but less of it.

It would appear that the fault has aspects of physical mis-alignment as it appears, but slightly further down the scanning sequence.

Naturally, I'm well disappointed. I had hoped that it was a fault with my particular camera that could be repaired or exchanged under warranty with no further hassle, but if they're all the same, then I've just wasted a lot of money.

I wish I'd bought the JVC GY-DV500E I was also considering prior to purchasing the XL1S.

Anyone wanting me to sign a petition to Canon, count me in!

[Rob Lohman]

Matt... I have exactly the same thing. Perhaps it is a PAL
thing that is different? Check the url I posted a couple of
posts earlier.

I do agree with Chris Hurd, I still do not see a real problem. Even
for use in PIP, you would resize this anyway. A little crop wouldn't
hurt here at all (since your gonna resize anyway). Perhaps the
people who having a real-world problem with this put up some
footage or screens grabs identifying exactly what they have a
problem with?

I checked the URL and your fault (for that is what it is) is the same as mine. For comparison, take a look at

http://www.mattmcardle.co.uk/canon_xl1s

and see for yourself. There's a few seconds of movie (Quicktime) up there too, if you have the patience to view it. You'll see those damn lines flicker and dance!

I don't entirely agree with you and Chris Hurd about it not being a problem. OK, for standard TV you aren't going to see them, and PIP-ing you are bound to crop, but I'm really with the multimedia guys on this one. That flickering baseline is hugely noticeable, especially viewed full screen on a monitor which people are BOUND to want to do if they have an option.

That means a post-production re-size and crop, no getting away from it and that costs time and money, as Ozzie has graphically demonstrated in this thread.

This is TOTALLY unacceptable and very unprofessional of Canon to ignore the issue, whatever spin 'apologists' and Canon hardcore fans like to put on it.

I think that Canon have misled us all on this one and they should sort it out.

[Rob Lohman]

Now were talking! I have been saying from the beginning of this
thread that those flickering lines are much more of a problem
to me then the black little lines! No-one seemed to acknowledge
or care back earlier. Glad I am not the only one to have this
problem. Luckely for me the output is letterboxed anyway so it
doesn't pose too much trouble at the moment, but who knows
in the future. This is one thing I would like to get fixed indeed!

I'll check your footage out!

[Robert Knecht Schmidt]

My XL1S doesn't exhibit flicker. But wow, the flicker noxiously salient on that Quicktime.

Another thing I noticed about the Quicktime: the image not only has a black border along the bottom, but also has thin black borders on the left and right a la the original XL1. What's the deal?

[Rob Lohman]

Robert... my XL1s has both these symptoms too (check my url
I posted earlier)... It looks like the flickering and the bars on
the side are PAL issues only??? Perhaps some NTSC user could
put up a page similiar as to mine and matt's?

[Ron Transco]

I just got off the phone with my sales rep. When he asked me to measure my "black line" problem I found that in interleave mode I had 3 solid black lines plus one gray line. In frame mode, it was 3 solid black plus two gray lines. He told me that he never heard of anyone with more than a single gray line at the bottom of the frame. Is it just me? Just wondering how many lines other XL1s owners were seeing.

[ja135321]

My second thoughts are I wish I didnt buy the XL1s.

If I knew this was a problem to begin with I would never have purchased it. I definately would have bought a *Professional* Camera.

CANON FIX THIS PROBLEM!

Chris, Perhaps you should just put a stick about this nice little "Feature" Canon has so that people know right off the bat? Perhaps this will get Canon to aleast do something.

[Chris Hurd]

At the rate this thread is going, there's no need to stick it to the top. It's always there anyway.