Set-up Levels at DVinfo.net

Christopher Hughes · August 25th, 2003, 02:58 PM

What setting do you all use or like using on set-up level? for things such as:
1) Making Films
2) Run and Gun shooting

Or do you just the set up level in the centre '0' at all times? Or what settings and when?

Just for PAL, I'm not bothered about being legal for NTSC broadcast standards.

Ed Smith · August 25th, 2003, 03:07 PM

Not to sure on what you mean for set-up level?

I normally have everything in manual, shoot 4:3 unless I know i'm doing 16x9 project.

Gain where possible -3db although in some situations its at 6 or 0.

Zebra patterns off - They get annoying sometimes

Shoot norammly at around 90/1000 or 125/1000 shutter speed

Audio is normally left in auto, although sometimes switch to manual, but always use the VU meters to monitor.

Depending on the situation (indoors, outdoors, cloudy day, etc) these will get adjusted

all the best,

Ed

Christopher Hughes · August 25th, 2003, 06:16 PM

SET-UP level the one on the menu to control blacks! You know under SHARPNESS, COLOUR GAIN, in menu system. Thats what I mean in SET-UP LEVEL.

Christopher Hughes · August 25th, 2003, 06:18 PM

I understand the rest that you say, just set-up level. Wonder what settings people use on SET-UP for various situations or styles, such as in making films.

Bill Ravens · August 25th, 2003, 06:59 PM

minus 2 corresponds to an IRE of 7.5

Ed Smith · August 26th, 2003, 12:49 PM

OK, Since I only have an XL1 I don't have this function. It was only introduced on the XL1S.

Happy shooting,

Ed

Christopher Hughes · August 27th, 2003, 07:35 PM

So no one out there with any more input as to what set-up levels they use on XL1s??? What, where, when, why.....etc!!!

Ken Tanaka · August 27th, 2003, 08:04 PM

For shooting dramatic, lighted work many people keep their gain down to -3. As Bill suggested, turning setup leve down two clicks is also common. But basically none of these settings will make gasp-worthy differences. The goal of both adjustments is to try to maintain good black levels without crushing them. Since you cannot change the gamma curve on the XL1s (unlike the DVX100) the basic straght-line relationships between white and black will remain the same.

For just swinging the camera around at an event you might as well leave the settings flat.

I don't know this for fact, but I believe that Canon included the new image adjustments primarily to enable you to match the XL1s to footage of other kindred cameras (GLx, PD150, VX2000) as needed.

I think if you take a few to create a small scene, light it properly and experiment with the settings you'll be able to see for yourself what setting presets might work best for your needs.

John Klein · September 26th, 2003, 03:36 PM

OK, I do shoot direct to NTSC, so take this with a grain of salt...

+2 Setup (to me, this is 7.5 IRE and opens up the shadows as well as decreasing the contrast a bit)

+2 Sharpness (any more and the contrast gets hot and noise is evident)

These settings give me a decent match for a pd 150 set to +1 sharpness and 7.5 setup.

Zebras annoying??pff I need to know when things are not only too hot, but I like to know when they are approaching being too hot..I go for 85-90

Christopher Hughes · September 26th, 2003, 04:16 PM

+2 = 7.5 IRE? I have been told that -2(minus 2) = 7.5 IRE, perhaps thats just on PAL. and FULL MINUS = ) IRE. I have tried +2 Setup but I found that it starts crushing (removing?) blacks too much to my taste, but once I did use like a +1 setup but just for a very dark concert hall.

As of late I have been going on the taste that someone mentioned here....my mind has gone blank to the name...hes the guy from the Netherlands - using PAL at FULL MINUS setup said as giving 0 IRE with 100 Zebras. I have found that works very well for me and gives nice black blacks. But of course it would be illegal broadcast for you NTSC guys! And I'm going with +1 Sharpness (that little extra sharpness helps to focus better using crappy standard viewfinder, although I do like the 0 sharpness smoothness) and +1 Colour for a little more richness.

That seems to work well for me.

Bill Ravens · September 26th, 2003, 05:14 PM

when i measured it on a vectorscope, -2 was ire7.5

Christopher Hughes · September 26th, 2003, 07:34 PM

and Full Minus is 0 IRE.....right?

Bill Ravens · September 27th, 2003, 06:47 AM

i think that's correct. if you go below 0 ire you get into the vertical sync pulse on an analog signal

Graeme Nattress · September 27th, 2003, 06:49 AM

Setup (7.5 IRE blacks) is purely an analogue North American NTSC "feature". It doesn't exist in the digital world (wether you're on DV, D1 or HDCAM) and it doesn't exist outside of North American NTSC (no setup in Japan).

Recording at anything other than 0 IRE blacks on a digital format will just loose you some luminance bit depth.

The ONLY situation where you may want to add setup in the digital domain is when you're on a multi camera live event, where you're feeding the analogue output from your DV camera into a mixing desk and you need a quick and easy way to match with the black level of the analogue camera next to you.

The ONLY time you add setup is when going out to an analogue format that needs it (NTSC), and the ONLY time to remove it is when dubbing or digitising analogue into the digital domain - you do both of these by buying a proc amp.

Bill Ravens · September 27th, 2003, 06:56 AM

Graeme...

I agree with you with all except for needing to buy a proc amp. These days, software proc amps have developed to the point that you can get away with it, if you're editting in DV and writing out to analog. Vegas 4 has an NTSC filter that will remap the chroma to 7.5 to 100 IRE. It does this by remapping the gamut and prevents the signal from exceeding NTSC bandwidth. Some older programs merely clip the signal, resulting in blown out whites and muddy shadows. If you can afford an external hardware based proc amp, more power to you, but, these things are horribly expensive and the software versions work reliably.

August 25th, 2003, 02:58 PM	#1
Christopher Hughes Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sunderland, England (y Merida, Mexico) Posts: 269	Set-up Levels What setting do you all use or like using on set-up level? for things such as: 1) Making Films 2) Run and Gun shooting Or do you just the set up level in the centre '0' at all times? Or what settings and when? Just for PAL, I'm not bothered about being legal for NTSC broadcast standards.

August 25th, 2003, 03:07 PM	#2
Ed Smith Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hampshire, England Posts: 1,545	Not to sure on what you mean for set-up level? I normally have everything in manual, shoot 4:3 unless I know i'm doing 16x9 project. Gain where possible -3db although in some situations its at 6 or 0. Zebra patterns off - They get annoying sometimes Shoot norammly at around 90/1000 or 125/1000 shutter speed Audio is normally left in auto, although sometimes switch to manual, but always use the VU meters to monitor. Depending on the situation (indoors, outdoors, cloudy day, etc) these will get adjusted all the best, Ed __________________ Ed Smith Hampshire, UK Good things come to those who wait My Skiing web www.Frostytour.co.uk For quick answers Search dvinfo.net \| The best in the business: dvinfo.net Sponsors

August 26th, 2003, 12:49 PM	#6
Ed Smith Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hampshire, England Posts: 1,545	OK, Since I only have an XL1 I don't have this function. It was only introduced on the XL1S. Happy shooting, Ed __________________ Ed Smith Hampshire, UK Good things come to those who wait My Skiing web www.Frostytour.co.uk For quick answers Search dvinfo.net \| The best in the business: dvinfo.net Sponsors

August 27th, 2003, 08:04 PM	#8
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	For shooting dramatic, lighted work many people keep their gain down to -3. As Bill suggested, turning setup leve down two clicks is also common. But basically none of these settings will make gasp-worthy differences. The goal of both adjustments is to try to maintain good black levels without crushing them. Since you cannot change the gamma curve on the XL1s (unlike the DVX100) the basic straght-line relationships between white and black will remain the same. For just swinging the camera around at an event you might as well leave the settings flat. I don't know this for fact, but I believe that Canon included the new image adjustments primarily to enable you to match the XL1s to footage of other kindred cameras (GLx, PD150, VX2000) as needed. I think if you take a few to create a small scene, light it properly and experiment with the settings you'll be able to see for yourself what setting presets might work best for your needs. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

September 26th, 2003, 03:36 PM	#9
John Klein Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 182	OK, I do shoot direct to NTSC, so take this with a grain of salt... +2 Setup (to me, this is 7.5 IRE and opens up the shadows as well as decreasing the contrast a bit) +2 Sharpness (any more and the contrast gets hot and noise is evident) These settings give me a decent match for a pd 150 set to +1 sharpness and 7.5 setup. Zebras annoying??pff I need to know when things are not only too hot, but I like to know when they are approaching being too hot..I go for 85-90 __________________ < >< . . . . . < >< . . . . . < ><

August 25th, 2003, 06:16 PM	#3
Christopher Hughes Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sunderland, England (y Merida, Mexico) Posts: 269	SET-UP level the one on the menu to control blacks! You know under SHARPNESS, COLOUR GAIN, in menu system. Thats what I mean in SET-UP LEVEL.

August 25th, 2003, 06:18 PM	#4
Christopher Hughes Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sunderland, England (y Merida, Mexico) Posts: 269	I understand the rest that you say, just set-up level. Wonder what settings people use on SET-UP for various situations or styles, such as in making films.

August 25th, 2003, 06:59 PM	#5
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	minus 2 corresponds to an IRE of 7.5

August 27th, 2003, 07:35 PM	#7
Christopher Hughes Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sunderland, England (y Merida, Mexico) Posts: 269	So no one out there with any more input as to what set-up levels they use on XL1s??? What, where, when, why.....etc!!!

September 26th, 2003, 04:16 PM	#10
Christopher Hughes Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sunderland, England (y Merida, Mexico) Posts: 269	+2 = 7.5 IRE? I have been told that -2(minus 2) = 7.5 IRE, perhaps thats just on PAL. and FULL MINUS = ) IRE. I have tried +2 Setup but I found that it starts crushing (removing?) blacks too much to my taste, but once I did use like a +1 setup but just for a very dark concert hall. As of late I have been going on the taste that someone mentioned here....my mind has gone blank to the name...hes the guy from the Netherlands - using PAL at FULL MINUS setup said as giving 0 IRE with 100 Zebras. I have found that works very well for me and gives nice black blacks. But of course it would be illegal broadcast for you NTSC guys! And I'm going with +1 Sharpness (that little extra sharpness helps to focus better using crappy standard viewfinder, although I do like the 0 sharpness smoothness) and +1 Colour for a little more richness. That seems to work well for me.

September 26th, 2003, 05:14 PM	#11
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	when i measured it on a vectorscope, -2 was ire7.5

September 26th, 2003, 07:34 PM	#12
Christopher Hughes Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sunderland, England (y Merida, Mexico) Posts: 269	and Full Minus is 0 IRE.....right?

September 27th, 2003, 06:47 AM	#13
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	i think that's correct. if you go below 0 ire you get into the vertical sync pulse on an analog signal

September 27th, 2003, 06:49 AM	#14
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Setup (7.5 IRE blacks) is purely an analogue North American NTSC "feature". It doesn't exist in the digital world (wether you're on DV, D1 or HDCAM) and it doesn't exist outside of North American NTSC (no setup in Japan). Recording at anything other than 0 IRE blacks on a digital format will just loose you some luminance bit depth. The ONLY situation where you may want to add setup in the digital domain is when you're on a multi camera live event, where you're feeding the analogue output from your DV camera into a mixing desk and you need a quick and easy way to match with the black level of the analogue camera next to you. The ONLY time you add setup is when going out to an analogue format that needs it (NTSC), and the ONLY time to remove it is when dubbing or digitising analogue into the digital domain - you do both of these by buying a proc amp. __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

September 27th, 2003, 06:56 AM	#15
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Graeme... I agree with you with all except for needing to buy a proc amp. These days, software proc amps have developed to the point that you can get away with it, if you're editting in DV and writing out to analog. Vegas 4 has an NTSC filter that will remap the chroma to 7.5 to 100 IRE. It does this by remapping the gamut and prevents the signal from exceeding NTSC bandwidth. Some older programs merely clip the signal, resulting in blown out whites and muddy shadows. If you can afford an external hardware based proc amp, more power to you, but, these things are horribly expensive and the software versions work reliably.