Grid lines? at DVinfo.net

Nori Wentworth · February 25th, 2002, 12:59 PM

I was wondering if anyone else is having this problem?

I have an XL1 with the manual 14X lens which I have owned for about a year and a half, and I have noticed that there are grid lines on the screen, the less light I use to shoot the more noticeable they become.

Is this a compression issue, or simply a digital camera problem?

Is there a solution to this?

I would appreciate all the help I can get?

Thanks- Nori Wentworth

Ken Tanaka · February 25th, 2002, 02:23 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Nori Wentworth :
I have an XL1 with the manual 14X lens which I have owned for about a year and a half, and I have noticed that there are grid lines on the screen, the less light I use to shoot the more noticeable they become. -->>>

Nori,

I also have the 14x lens but not have seen such lines.

- You say you see the lines "...on the screen"? When do you actually see these lines? When looking through the viewfinder while shooting? When playing back tapes on the cam?

- Why do you attribute the lines to the lens? Do you only see them on scenes you shot with this lens and not with other lenses?

Nori Wentworth · February 26th, 2002, 11:23 AM

I do believe the problem to be simply a digital video one and not my lens. I never bothered purchasing the 16X automatic lens for my camera so I can't compare the two. The problem is more noticeable on darker images, especially when transferred to my computer via firewire then back to the camera.

A good example of what I am talking about can be found on Steve Nunez's Web site. If you have two seconds check out this image. Look closely at the sky, it has a matte painting look to it.

http://www.bronxpowersports.com/XL1Sphotos/pages/elks.htm

It would appear that the Xl1S has this problem as well.

Any Idea what is causing this? And more importantly How can I get rid of it?

Thanks- Nori Wentworth

Ken Tanaka · February 26th, 2002, 02:03 PM

Nori,
Steve's photo suggests some sort of moire effect. Hard to say what accounted for it. I've not seen such an effect from either my XL1 or my XL1s. (Steve, if you're listening, can you add anything here?) I know that such an effect can be produced, particularly from a still taken of a subject with a raster/dot pattern and then resized.

But you didn't answer my question; are you seeing this phenomenon:

a. directly in your viewfinder while you're shooting,
b. on an NTSC (or PAL) monitor while viewing footage from tape,
c. on your computer monitor while reviewing or editing footage, or
d. on digital stills from footage frames.

Nori Wentworth · February 26th, 2002, 02:19 PM

Ken,

I am seeing this phenomenon directly in my viewfinder while I'm shooting, on a NTSC monitor while viewing footage from tape, on my computer monitor while reviewing and editing footage, and
on digital stills from footage frames.

I didn't notice this when I first got the camera, until I shot an interior night shot, -3db gain, 1/120 shutter and the iris fully open.

A lot of people I show don't even see them, but it's bothering me so much now all I do is look for them. If you look at all of Steve's pictures you will notice the grid on all of them (Sorry Steve, don't mean to pick on your pics, just comparing yours to mine.)

Thanks for any Help- Nori

Ken Tanaka · February 26th, 2002, 02:25 PM

Geez, it's sure hard not to notice that pattern. You must be doing pieces for the Canadian Society of Optometrists. <g>

I expect to have some time later today or early this evening to try to reproduce the effect using your settings. Will get back.

Ed Frazier · February 26th, 2002, 03:22 PM

Nori, this sounds a lot like a problem that plagued early XL1 units. There is detailed information on the Watchdog site, I believe under XL1 Skinny and Short History of Problems. It is the first problem noted regarding "vertical lines". Your problem may be different, but it sure sounds familiar.

Ken Tanaka · February 26th, 2002, 05:14 PM

Nori,

I just used my XL1s to try to reproduce the "grid" or moire pattern you reported but was unable to do so, even using a broad variety of gain and shutter settings. Ed's note certainly bears investigation. Canon's service department might have a fix for you.

Nori Wentworth · February 27th, 2002, 01:13 PM

I' ve just called Canon and the guy I spoke with has never heard of the problem. They're checking into it as I write this.

Am I simply being too picky?

Does nobody else notice this "mesh"!!?

Rob Lohman · February 27th, 2002, 01:32 PM

It is certainly not in my footage I shoot with the XL1S... I do
see it on the picture on that URL though. So it really is there!
I suggest sending your camera in for a checkup.

Good luck!

February 25th, 2002, 12:59 PM	#1
Nori Wentworth Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kelowna, B.C. Canada Posts: 217	Grid lines? I was wondering if anyone else is having this problem? I have an XL1 with the manual 14X lens which I have owned for about a year and a half, and I have noticed that there are grid lines on the screen, the less light I use to shoot the more noticeable they become. Is this a compression issue, or simply a digital camera problem? Is there a solution to this? I would appreciate all the help I can get? Thanks- Nori Wentworth

February 25th, 2002, 02:23 PM	#2
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Re: Grid lines? <<<-- Originally posted by Nori Wentworth : I have an XL1 with the manual 14X lens which I have owned for about a year and a half, and I have noticed that there are grid lines on the screen, the less light I use to shoot the more noticeable they become. -->>> Nori, I also have the 14x lens but not have seen such lines. - You say you see the lines "...on the screen"? When do you actually see these lines? When looking through the viewfinder while shooting? When playing back tapes on the cam? - Why do you attribute the lines to the lens? Do you only see them on scenes you shot with this lens and not with other lenses? __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

February 26th, 2002, 11:23 AM	#3
Nori Wentworth Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kelowna, B.C. Canada Posts: 217	Thanks for responding Ken. I do believe the problem to be simply a digital video one and not my lens. I never bothered purchasing the 16X automatic lens for my camera so I can't compare the two. The problem is more noticeable on darker images, especially when transferred to my computer via firewire then back to the camera. A good example of what I am talking about can be found on Steve Nunez's Web site. If you have two seconds check out this image. Look closely at the sky, it has a matte painting look to it. http://www.bronxpowersports.com/XL1Sphotos/pages/elks.htm It would appear that the Xl1S has this problem as well. Any Idea what is causing this? And more importantly How can I get rid of it? Thanks- Nori Wentworth

February 26th, 2002, 02:03 PM	#4
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Nori, Steve's photo suggests some sort of moire effect. Hard to say what accounted for it. I've not seen such an effect from either my XL1 or my XL1s. (Steve, if you're listening, can you add anything here?) I know that such an effect can be produced, particularly from a still taken of a subject with a raster/dot pattern and then resized. But you didn't answer my question; are you seeing this phenomenon: a. directly in your viewfinder while you're shooting, b. on an NTSC (or PAL) monitor while viewing footage from tape, c. on your computer monitor while reviewing or editing footage, or d. on digital stills from footage frames. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

February 26th, 2002, 02:25 PM	#6
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Geez, it's sure hard not to notice that pattern. You must be doing pieces for the Canadian Society of Optometrists. <g> I expect to have some time later today or early this evening to try to reproduce the effect using your settings. Will get back. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

February 26th, 2002, 02:19 PM	#5
Nori Wentworth Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kelowna, B.C. Canada Posts: 217	Ken, I am seeing this phenomenon directly in my viewfinder while I'm shooting, on a NTSC monitor while viewing footage from tape, on my computer monitor while reviewing and editing footage, and on digital stills from footage frames. I didn't notice this when I first got the camera, until I shot an interior night shot, -3db gain, 1/120 shutter and the iris fully open. A lot of people I show don't even see them, but it's bothering me so much now all I do is look for them. If you look at all of Steve's pictures you will notice the grid on all of them (Sorry Steve, don't mean to pick on your pics, just comparing yours to mine.) Thanks for any Help- Nori

February 26th, 2002, 03:22 PM	#7
Ed Frazier Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 343	Nori, this sounds a lot like a problem that plagued early XL1 units. There is detailed information on the Watchdog site, I believe under XL1 Skinny and Short History of Problems. It is the first problem noted regarding "vertical lines". Your problem may be different, but it sure sounds familiar. __________________ Ed Frazier

February 26th, 2002, 05:14 PM	#8
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Nori, I just used my XL1s to try to reproduce the "grid" or moire pattern you reported but was unable to do so, even using a broad variety of gain and shutter settings. Ed's note certainly bears investigation. Canon's service department might have a fix for you. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

February 27th, 2002, 01:13 PM	#9
Nori Wentworth Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kelowna, B.C. Canada Posts: 217	I' ve just called Canon and the guy I spoke with has never heard of the problem. They're checking into it as I write this. Am I simply being too picky? Does nobody else notice this "mesh"!!?

February 27th, 2002, 01:32 PM	#10
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	It is certainly not in my footage I shoot with the XL1S... I do see it on the picture on that URL though. So it really is there! I suggest sending your camera in for a checkup. Good luck! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors