Apple IO-HD and XL-H1 24F capture - NEW INFO

[Robert Sanders]

$3500 retail. $3000-3200 street.

[John Benton]

how are you thinking of sound with the XL-H1 & the I/O HD?

[Robert Sanders]

Originally Posted by John Benton

how are you thinking of sound with the XL-H1 & the I/O HD?

Mic lines into our Mackie and then XLR to the XLR Inputs. Unfortunately, there's no audio offset feature to take care of the 2 frame sync problem with the H1.

However, we just changed our minds on the IO.

Because our feature takes place primarily inside one apartment building with an additional week on a stage, we realized we could very easily cart around a MacPro. Rather than spend considerable cash on both a MacPro upgrade (editing suite) AND a MacBook w/IO, we decided on just a MacPro with a Kona3.

Also, we were concerned about the IO not being updated to handle the H1's pulldown when in 24F in time for our shoot.

[Barlow Elton]

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

We're planning on purchasing the AJA IO HD for our feature. My only concern is that if they don't have the pulldown feature enabled for the XLH1 by the time we shoot we'll have to do the pulldown in post and subject the footage to a generation loss.

Thankfully ProRess 422 shines in generation-ally.

Ahh, just catching up here. Heh heh, the HD SDI cult still lives!

Robert,

There wouldn't be any generation loss using Cinema Tools to do inverse telecine--the new version can simply analyze the clip and extract the correct frames without recompressing. It just makes a new self-contained QT movie from the raw clip.

Btw, it's funny how this feature is now being added to the I/O HD. At NAB I asked to speak with an engineering guy at the AJA booth, and told him about my desire to have 24F to 24P HD SDI capability with an H1 and the I/O. He said it couldn't be done because there are no flags in the timecode stream.

Well, well, I guess that was a load. It may be that their new software/hardware combo will have to do a framestore and analyze the stream in realtime, but if CineForm can do it with the Wafian, I'm sure AJA can do it too.

[Barlow Elton]

btw, I've been testing ProRes with the Kona LH and it IS very nice. Especially good as an intermediate codec for HDV too.

[Robert Sanders]

Does the new Cinema Tools still require that trick where you've got to find an I frame first so Cinema Tools knows how to do?

I heard that for the IO HD to do pulldown correctly the timecode output from the H1 would have to be connected as well. Perhaps the engineer you spoke to was referring to the HD-SDI from the H1 only containing video and not TC+Audio. Just a guess.

I was wondering how Wafian was doing it too.

I wonder if these new ProRes workflow models are making the Wafian guys nervous? I realize Cineform is still a superior codec, but ProRes is close in quality, and with a MacBook Pro solution (via the IO HD) it's gotta have the Wafian guys biting their nails. I would.

[Robert Sanders]

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

btw, I've been testing ProRes with the Kona LH and it IS very nice. Especially good as an intermediate codec for HDV too.

We're ordering an 8-core MacPro with a Kona3. I've usually used Blackmagic in the past. This will be our first AJA product. The reason I'm going to spring for the Kona3, which is significantly more expensive, is that we'll probably need 444 support next year when we shoot with RED.

[Barlow Elton]

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

Does the new Cinema Tools still require that trick where you've got to find an I frame first so Cinema Tools knows how to do?

Oops, I goofed up on that one. It's the new Compressor 3.0 that can automatically remove pulldown. Cinema Tools still has to know the I frame info. Annoying. :(

I heard that for the IO HD to do pulldown correctly the timecode output from the H1 would have to be connected as well. Perhaps the engineer you spoke to was referring to the HD-SDI from the H1 only containing video and not TC+Audio. Just a guess.

That may be it, but I remember the guy mentioning that CineForm did some actual image analysis to determine cadence and then remove pulldown. This may or may not be true.

I realize Cineform is still a superior codec, but ProRes is close in quality, and with a MacBook Pro solution (via the IO HD) it's gotta have the Wafian guys biting their nails. I would.

"Superior" may be a debatable term. ProRes is basically the Apple equivalent of Avid DNX HD. I've done lots of conversions from HDV to ProRes and I can't visually perceive any loss--even with multiple generations of renders too. By comparision, it was subtle, but I could definitely see the loss transcoding HDV to DVCPRO HD or PhotoJPEG, or even AIC.

Supposedly ProRes is a DCT-based codec, whereas CineForm is wavelet. In the end, all I care about is the quality of the final product, and so far I've been very impressed with ProRes. Hopefully CineForm is an improvement over ProRes, but I doubt anyone could possibly see a difference in most real world situations.

One definite advantage ProRes has is not requiring an Intel Mac for good performance. It works great on my 2 year old G5.

[Barlow Elton]

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

We're ordering an 8-core MacPro with a Kona3. I've usually used Blackmagic in the past. This will be our first AJA product. The reason I'm going to spring for the Kona3, which is significantly more expensive, is that we'll probably need 444 support next year when we shoot with RED.

8-core, 444, blah blah blah. So spoiled. :)

[Kevin Martorana]

Just thought I'd put a quick note in here...
if you need to capture 24 f from the H1...

we use the Convergent Design HD Connect SI
http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_...DConnectSI.htm

Works with our Avid Adrenaline and FCP.

BUT...only one way....FROM the camera...into a NLE.

[Max Hoffman]

Hi all,

This is my first post. I've been reading the posts on here for a few weeks and first of all thank you to everyone for all the information, it is most helpful.

I am shooting 24f on my XL H1 and I want to go HD SDI out uncompressed 10 bit into my Kona card and capture in FCP (bypassing the HDV tape all together), but there is no time code on the HD SDI signal and the audio is not digital which makes sync a challenge. I see that others are experiencing this problem and have found work arounds, but this is new to me. The following is the best work flow I have been able to come up with, but I would really appreciate it if someone would advise me on this before I make any further investments:

Shoot in 24f, send the video signal out live HD SDI into the AMX 800 box (Miranda) while at the same time send the audio out analog into the AMX 800. The AMX 800 will embed time code on the video and also embed the audio and send both out together over HD SDI into the Kona3. Capture in FPC at 1080i 60i and then in Cinema Tools pull down to 24p. Since there are no flags on the frames, is this hard to to do each time? Is there any generation loss?

I am also going to use a 35 mm adapter. I haven't decided whether to rent the PS or buy the redrock, but if I scap the XL H1 and go over to the XH G1 which embeds timecode and sends out audio over HD SDI I would locked into using the Redrock Micro M2 since there aren't interchangeable lenses. It seems to be an elegant solution in theory, but I just don't know if it is going to look too soft when I film out.

Please advise.
Max

[Robert Sanders]

Mike Curtis over at HDforIndies recommended using Compressor to do the pulldown conversion rather than CinemaTools because Compressor reads the flags correctly.

The article references the HV20, but the workflow relates to 24F.

http://www.hdforindies.com/2007/07/w...anon-hv20.html

[Gary McClurg]

Originally Posted by Max Hoffman

I am also going to use a 35 mm adapter. I haven't decided whether to rent the PS or buy the redrock, but if I scap the XL H1 and go over to the XH G1 which embeds timecode and sends out audio over HD SDI I would locked into using the Redrock Micro M2 since there aren't interchangeable lenses. It seems to be an elegant solution in theory, but I just don't know if it is going to look too soft when I film out.

Please advise.
Max

The adapter will soften the image... but you really have to think of the odds of getting a film out...

There is a film that's suppose to come out after summer Sarah Landon and the somethng tree... shot with the hvx and m2...

Also when you say P & S... not sure if you mean the new adapter made for the Canon... its due out in August... $8.5k... but look into rental...

[Max Hoffman]

Thank you Robert and Gary for the advise. I talked to Tim at Canon about my camera and its limitation and possible work arounds and he mentioned that you (Robert) are about to start shooting your movie in downtown LA soon with both XL H1 and XH G1. Is there any differences you see in the quality between the two? Do you recommend one over the other? I am seriously considering switching to the XH G1... and to Gary... I would either buy the redrock micro or rent the new PS for the Canon that is coming out in August

Robert I checked out your website and it looks great! I completed my short film in 2005... you can check it out at www.3719broadleafroad.com. Since then I have been putting together my first full length feature... will post more about it as we apporach our principle which starts this December.

[Gary McClurg]

Your welcome....