Powering the XL-H1: Anton Bauer, IDX or...

[Alex Dolgin]

Originally Posted by Kevin Martorana

Floris...

all you say is true...but be careful..

the anton bauer Dionix are a 1 year battery. This is info from AB.

Hence the price on the Dionics. They are designed for a year's useage...then the quickly loose power.

The trimpack and powerpack batteries are warrantied for 3 years. If anything goes wrong...they replace it. Period. I've had it happen.

food for thought.

1 year warranty represents how the company *feels* about the long term reliability of the pack, not how long it will actually last. It is as much a business decision as technical. With Li-Ion there is always more electronics in the pack, safety related, so there is more things to go wrong statistically. The Li-Ion cells themselfs are OK, they age about 10% a year, which is comparable with the older chemistries. Their cycle life is about 400-600 which is less than that of Ni-Cads, but *NOT* 200 as was mentioned earlier in the thread. This 200 number does not have any basis, and probably reflects bias against the chemistry which is not supported by real life use or specifications. (I am referring to the brand name cells like Sanyo, Panasonic, Sony - not ones coming from China)

[Alex Dolgin]

Originally Posted by Jaron Berman

But, specifically, the question related to LiIons... Here is the big secret - the very nicest LiIon cells only last 200 cycles, best case scenario. Now, that's actually a fair amount of use, but it's something to remember. After 50-60 cycles, most will not output the same current the did initially, and after 100, they will be basically on their last legs.

There is absolutely no basis for this misinformation. This number is not supported by specifications from any reputable cell manufacturers like Sanyo, Panasonic, etc. I am sure many AB users will share their real life experience, as they can easily access cycle number information through the AB charger menue.

[Floris van Eck]

I have confidence in the Anton Bauer gear but I am not sure if the UL-2 is as good as i.e. the IDX-X3 light. But I do get a better charger and bigger batteries for that so it might be the best option. At the end, I might end up buying individual components without the UL-2 light and then buy like a Lite Panel or one of the other lights that use a powertap connection.

[Floris van Eck]

Originally Posted by Don Bloom

As for powering your gear remember the IDX7(s) is 71W and the AB Dionic90 is 90W-the power of the camera PLUS the power of the light if powered off the camera battery such as an AB light DIVIDED BY 1/3d! Yep, divide the power of the light by 1/3d. IOW, if the light is pushing a 25W bulb the draw on the battery is not 25W but 8-this is right off the AB website. so say the camera draws 7W to power and the light pulls 8 you are drawing 15W total-15W into a 90W battery means you can run with the light on for 6 hours-however do not run the battery until it screams for help. I prefer not to go below 10% remaining then change out. If you run any battery dry especially Li-On THAT's when there is a CHANCE of having a problem later.

Not true. If a light is 15W, it consumes 15W. If a light is 25W, it consumes 25W. What Anton Bauer indicates, is that on average you use the light for 33% of your shooting... so that is where the 8 comes from. But in my calculation, I calculated 100% light use... so my calculation is correct. LED technology gives more light but uses less power. So the IDX light is drawing less power then the Anton Bauer light... which is nice.

[Don Bloom]

I have never read it as being used 30% of the time.

This is copied directly from the Anton Bauer web site;

"Runtime Variance for Lighting

When using a 25 watt Ultralight, consider that average light use is around 30% or adds about 8 watts to your total power consumption (camera + light). Therefore, you can estimate battery Run Times with the formula below by combining 8 watts with your camera's power consumption.

When using a 50 watt Ultralight, consider that average light use is around 30% or adds about 17 watts to your total power consumption (camera + light). Therefore, you can estimate battery Run Times with the formula below by combining 17 watts with your camera's power consumption."

Runtime (hours) = Battery Capacity (watt hours)
--------------------------------------------------
{Lighting (Watts) + Camera Power Consumption (Watts) }

Don

[Floris van Eck]

Yes, they mean 30% average use. No way a 35 Watt light (so not LED) can use less power. Watt light = Watt use. That's with all lights.

[Don Bloom]

Floris,
I'm not going to argue the point but I have talked to the people at AB previously and they told me exactly what the formula read and what the website says.
If whayt you say is true then where does the 8 watts and 17watts come from in their examples?

I think one of us is mis-interpreting the formula and frankly I don't think it's me.

Don

[Alex Dolgin]

Don, if a light is a 25W, it uses 25W, no way around it. If you turn it on only for 20 minutes every hour, than it becomes a 8W light. Also, if you have a dimmer adjusted to 30%, the light would use 8W. It is pretty much cut and dry, no wiggle room :-)

[Floris van Eck]

http://www.antonbauer.com/images/formula.gif

The 8 watt comes from the 25 watt x 33%. Anton Bauer estimates that you will use the light for 33% of your shooting. So then it uses 8 watt over the lifespan of a battery. But in my calculation, the light usage is 100%.

It would be nice if I was wrong but I do not think that is the case.

If you look up the UL-2 at BH Photo Video, power consumption is rated 25 - 85 watt. Why? Because you can change the 25 watt bulb for a 85 watt bulb. So I am really confident that that is the true power consumption.

[Don Bloom]

OK 2 to 1 but I have to say, to me at least, the info on the AB site AND what one of the engineers told me is to say the least confusing. Over the years as I have read the info on their site it said to me, and everyone I have ever talked to who read it, the same thing and when I talked to AB about another issue about 3 years ago I asked this very same question and I was told what I related. I trust AB but I guess it's the old thing. Burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me.

My apologizes to Floris and anyone I might have inadvertantly misled with the misinformation from a trusted mfg.

But I still love thier products ;-)

Don

[Bruce S. Yarock]

Floris,
When shooting a long event (wedding,etc), when I need my light, I use the following:
1-Canon batteries (also knock offs from power101.com) to power the camera.
2-Frezzi mini fill with softbox , camera mounted.
3- An Anton Bauer Dionic 90 to power the light only.
This way, I usually have enough juice in the Dionic 90 to power the light for an entire wedding, while powering the cam with the stock batteries.
If I'm shooting without the light, I usually use the AB dionic 90 to power the H1.
Bruce S. Yarock
www.yarock.com

[Floris van Eck]

No problem Don. Those things happen. I do not feel misled.

[Floris van Eck]

Ok, I have been doing a lot of research. Most of my questions are answered. I now how to calculate running times. The difference between IDX and Anton Bauer are minimal. Anton Bauer has a more intelligent system... but it's proprietary and costs more. I have decided not to buy imitation brands simply because of warranty issues and risk. If I am going to invest $1500 in a battery system I do not want to take the risk that I end up with nothing. I do think those companies are reliable, but I just prefer to buy from i.e. BH Photo Video. If Batteries4Broadcast goes out of business I have nowhere to go.

The question that remains is if I go for IDX or Anton Bauer. The decision largely comes down on the batteries. And on handling. The Canon XL-H1 is front-heavy so if I can counter with a big battery at the back it would be very welcome. So, the Dionic 90... does it improve the balance or does it fix balance? IDX has a powerlink feature where you can stack two batteries so if the Dionic 90 doesn't restore the balance completely that might be a good option. In terms of price, the Endura Xs series are the cheapest. The IDX Endura 7/10 series are only marginally cheaper then the Anton Bauer's.

Both have a powertap so I think it ultimately comes down to handling. So if there are Dionic 90 users in here, please tell me how the balance is when you use a Dionic 90? I would like to thank everyone for the feedback so far.

[Alex Dolgin]

Originally Posted by Floris van Eck

The difference between IDX and Anton Bauer are minimal.

In my opinion AB has higher standards for engineering and manufacturing quality. Here is a link to a recent battery recall by IDX http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...tteries+recall

[Carlos Quinones]

We got AB Dyonic 90....and it works perfect to me.

We power our H1 plus the Mini35 with it and it works perfect...we never complained.

Take Care,

Carlos Quinones
It's Written Productions, LLC.
www.itswrittenproductions.com