16x Manual: Is this lens still viable?

Will Griffith · May 18th, 2007, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Blair

Is the focus point behind the interviewee, or in front of them, frankly no-one can tell me, and I work in the professional broadcast sector on professional editing gear? As a result I abandoned the XL H1 on this project and all the rest is shot on digibeta. Crystal sharp!

1. was it a HD monitor you were checking focus on?
2. did you properly adjust your back-focus for the H1? (you have to adjust
it if you used it on the XL2 last)
3. did you try using the magnification feature on the horrid viewfinder?

We have had > 0 < problems with focus on any lens with the H1, especially
the 16x. It would be a perfect lens if it had a iris ring. We lost focus
1 time with the 6x wide lens, but that was user error caused by bumping
the AF switch.

Bruce S. Yarock · May 18th, 2007, 11:04 AM

John,
Before you give up, maybe you should try the fu-1000 monochrome viewfinder. It's razor sharp for focus, and if you have another monitor for color, you're in business. I use mine whenever I can. In run and gun, changing light conditions, I'll leave the stock piece of shite viewfinder on the H1, but if I can, i'll use the fu 1000.
good luck

Will Griffith · May 18th, 2007, 11:22 AM

...or if you are doing a bunch of interviews just buy a Marshall HDSDI monitor
which isn't much different in price than the fu-1000. (Not too good for run
and gun though.)

Bruce S. Yarock · May 18th, 2007, 12:52 PM

John,
I forgot to mention...I also use a Varizoom Switt monitor when I can shoot tripod mounted. The switt works well whether I'm shooting in Sd or Hd. manfrotto sells a locking arm which keeps it pretty steady on your tripod arm. The Switt is around $1100.
Bruce S. Yarock
www.yarock.com

Ed Moore · May 22nd, 2007, 06:44 AM

Just for the sake of debate, I have the 16X manual lens and whilst I think it's fantastic for operation, I find the picture quality it produces unacceptable.

It's not something that particularly bothered me on set monitoring on the Panasonic 8.4" HD LCD, or in the SD final DVDs which most of our work goes to. But I just cut a new showreel from all our original HDV tapes and monitored the HD-SDI output from the camera through a Blackmagic HDlink into an Apple 23" monitor. The difference between the stuff shot with the stock 20x and the manual 16x was really noticeable to my eye - the image looked pretty soft overall, particularly towards the edges and there were some awesome bits of chromatic aberation - any remotely contrasty edges were outlined in blue.

I have in my kit the big test that was done giving the suggested apertures and focal lengths that work best with this lens, and when possible I do try and stick within them which does improve the image a bit. However, for me (your mileage may vary), this sort of restriction makes the lens unusable choice for "real-life" production where you can't always work around that sort of thing.

The absolute final straw though is that it flares horribly! Even nicely flagged I've found that any light sources remotely pointing towards the lens cause the image to become really milky and unpleasant.

This is all just my experience and I understand people have had a great time with this lens - it's been fantastic for me on occasions when we've needed to run remote focus on steadicams and jibs and only a manual XL mount lens will do. However, I would much rather put up with the annoying servo focus (and inability to focus and zoom at the same time!) of the 20x to maintain the image quality.

If anyone in the UK would like a flightcased 16x manual XL lens in pristine condition for a bargain price, give me a buzz!

Marty Hudzik · May 22nd, 2007, 09:08 AM

I'm really surprised by your report. I have had great luck with the lens so far. I will agree that it does look softer when zommed in all the way with a wide open aperture but I have not seen any of the other issues you mention. Especially the softness at the edges. Mine seems to be sharp edge to edge. If it is less sharp than the 20x overall, it is at least unifrom across the frame.

I"d love to have a manual HD lens but probably could not afford it! So this is a good option for now. I have been shooting with the 20x a little more lately but mostly because I have need the longer reach and the OIS. I find the servo design very frustrating but I do like the indicators in the EVF to tell me my zoom and focus numbers.

I also notice no big problems with lens flares......but I may not have been in the right situation to show this.

Good Luck!

Steve Rosen · May 22nd, 2007, 01:56 PM

Marty; Me too.. well, maybe that's too short an answer -

I pretty much use the 16x 90% of the time and hardly ever use the 20x anymore, because I prefer manual focus..

I recently had a screening of a film I made with the H1 on a huge screen - I opted to make an HDV master and play back component out from a Sony deck. Now, that is admittedly not an HD setup, but it looked fantastic, and the 16x material was terrific looking intercut with 20x and 6x. Since I've had an HDCAM dub made from that master, and it is amazing looking (remember, if you will, that I didn't originally like HDV).

There may be some variations in individual lenses, but I've owned two 16xs and I thought they both were pretty darn good (I sold one with my XL2 and bought another)...

I do admittedly wish Canon would offer an HD manual lens, but they don't, so the 16x is all we got...

Marty Hudzik · May 22nd, 2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Rosen

There may be some variations in individual lenses, but I've owned two 16xs and I thought they both were pretty darn good (I sold one with my XL2 and bought another)...I

I have you beat! I have owned 3 of them! One with my XL2 and then I sold it with the XL2. One with my first H1 that I sold with my first H1 and now another with my 2nd H1. I have a problem. I know.

R.W. Swanson · May 31st, 2007, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Hudzik

I have you beat! I have owned 3 of them! One with my XL2 and then I sold it with the XL2. One with my first H1 that I sold with my first H1 and now another with my 2nd H1. I have a problem. I know.

Do you have drug habit? (:

I need to get this lens. Are you guys rebuying these 16xs new or used? And how much are you paying?

Richard Alvarez · May 31st, 2007, 06:30 AM

They move fairly regularly on Ebay for around 800 dollars.

Marty Hudzik · May 31st, 2007, 06:32 AM

No drug habit but I do have problem settling with one camera. The next great thing comes out and I tend to rush and sell my gear and then buy it. Then it turns out the next great thing is not as great as I thought and I end up regretting my decision and then selling it and buying back what I used to have, realizing it suited my needs better! Hopefully those days are over.

I bought my first 16x manual new for around $1325 at BH. Then I bought my 2nd one for a steal of $750 used from a trusted DVinfo member. Finally, my 3rd one was bought used on Ebay for $925. I was kicking myself! While I did make money when I originally sold them, I ended up losing money having to rebuy them again. A hard way to learn a lesson.

I would think you should be able to find one in the $900 range or a little lower used.

Good Luck!

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.W. Swanson

Do you have drug habit? (:

I need to get this lens. Are you guys rebuying these 16xs new or used? And how much are you paying?

May 18th, 2007, 11:22 AM	#33
Will Griffith Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tennessee Posts: 164	...or if you are doing a bunch of interviews just buy a Marshall HDSDI monitor which isn't much different in price than the fu-1000. (Not too good for run and gun though.) __________________ will griffith producer/editor

May 22nd, 2007, 06:44 AM	#35
Ed Moore Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 35	Just for the sake of debate, I have the 16X manual lens and whilst I think it's fantastic for operation, I find the picture quality it produces unacceptable. It's not something that particularly bothered me on set monitoring on the Panasonic 8.4" HD LCD, or in the SD final DVDs which most of our work goes to. But I just cut a new showreel from all our original HDV tapes and monitored the HD-SDI output from the camera through a Blackmagic HDlink into an Apple 23" monitor. The difference between the stuff shot with the stock 20x and the manual 16x was really noticeable to my eye - the image looked pretty soft overall, particularly towards the edges and there were some awesome bits of chromatic aberation - any remotely contrasty edges were outlined in blue. I have in my kit the big test that was done giving the suggested apertures and focal lengths that work best with this lens, and when possible I do try and stick within them which does improve the image a bit. However, for me (your mileage may vary), this sort of restriction makes the lens unusable choice for "real-life" production where you can't always work around that sort of thing. The absolute final straw though is that it flares horribly! Even nicely flagged I've found that any light sources remotely pointing towards the lens cause the image to become really milky and unpleasant. This is all just my experience and I understand people have had a great time with this lens - it's been fantastic for me on occasions when we've needed to run remote focus on steadicams and jibs and only a manual XL mount lens will do. However, I would much rather put up with the annoying servo focus (and inability to focus and zoom at the same time!) of the 20x to maintain the image quality. If anyone in the UK would like a flightcased 16x manual XL lens in pristine condition for a bargain price, give me a buzz! __________________ - Ed Moore DP

May 18th, 2007, 11:04 AM	#32
Bruce S. Yarock Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pembroke Pines, Fl. Posts: 1,842	John, Before you give up, maybe you should try the fu-1000 monochrome viewfinder. It's razor sharp for focus, and if you have another monitor for color, you're in business. I use mine whenever I can. In run and gun, changing light conditions, I'll leave the stock piece of shite viewfinder on the H1, but if I can, i'll use the fu 1000. good luck

May 18th, 2007, 12:52 PM	#34
Bruce S. Yarock Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pembroke Pines, Fl. Posts: 1,842	John, I forgot to mention...I also use a Varizoom Switt monitor when I can shoot tripod mounted. The switt works well whether I'm shooting in Sd or Hd. manfrotto sells a locking arm which keeps it pretty steady on your tripod arm. The Switt is around $1100. Bruce S. Yarock www.yarock.com

May 22nd, 2007, 09:08 AM	#36
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	I'm really surprised by your report. I have had great luck with the lens so far. I will agree that it does look softer when zommed in all the way with a wide open aperture but I have not seen any of the other issues you mention. Especially the softness at the edges. Mine seems to be sharp edge to edge. If it is less sharp than the 20x overall, it is at least unifrom across the frame. I"d love to have a manual HD lens but probably could not afford it! So this is a good option for now. I have been shooting with the 20x a little more lately but mostly because I have need the longer reach and the OIS. I find the servo design very frustrating but I do like the indicators in the EVF to tell me my zoom and focus numbers. I also notice no big problems with lens flares......but I may not have been in the right situation to show this. Good Luck!

May 22nd, 2007, 01:56 PM	#37
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	Marty; Me too.. well, maybe that's too short an answer - I pretty much use the 16x 90% of the time and hardly ever use the 20x anymore, because I prefer manual focus.. I recently had a screening of a film I made with the H1 on a huge screen - I opted to make an HDV master and play back component out from a Sony deck. Now, that is admittedly not an HD setup, but it looked fantastic, and the 16x material was terrific looking intercut with 20x and 6x. Since I've had an HDCAM dub made from that master, and it is amazing looking (remember, if you will, that I didn't originally like HDV). There may be some variations in individual lenses, but I've owned two 16xs and I thought they both were pretty darn good (I sold one with my XL2 and bought another)... I do admittedly wish Canon would offer an HD manual lens, but they don't, so the 16x is all we got...

May 31st, 2007, 06:30 AM	#40
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	They move fairly regularly on Ebay for around 800 dollars.