XL H1 broadcast quality?

Andrew Davies · January 17th, 2007, 06:46 PM

I guess the footage would be cut into digibeta taken of the human interest side of the program filmed by the companies own cameramen. So, will the wildlife footage be of high enough quality to be accepted?

Jim Martin · January 17th, 2007, 07:39 PM

The H1 was built for the broadcasters. It is now approved by DiscoveryHD for 100%(HDV) content and they are thought to be the pickiest. Also, what has developed in the last year is that all these cameras are being called aquisition devices of which, when getting to post, everyone changes codec and after the master is done, send it out whatever codec you need to satisfy the client. All the restrictions on HDV were from the problems that the Z1 had/has. I'm sure the BBC will come around soon and OK the Canons.

Charles Perkins · January 18th, 2007, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

All the restrictions on HDV were from the problems that the Z1 had/has. I'm sure the BBC will come around soon and OK the Canons.

trust me, there not going to. hdv to them is useless becuase when they have to compress it for broadcastHD it gives far to much noise and pixelation. you can blame this on the compression codec they use, but its the one they use and they are not going to change that now. also, they have said that even 16mm telecine to HD is not good enough becuase of the film grain it also messes up the compression and doesn't look like HD. if you record 4:2:2 out of the HD-SDI port then they will accept the camera, but not if you are recording HDV to tape.

Andrew Davies · January 18th, 2007, 03:40 AM

Is this just a problem if the final broadcast is to be in HD? As far as I know, the program would go out in 2008 so I guess it will be PAL SD.

Andrew Davies · January 18th, 2007, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

The H1 was built for the broadcasters. It is now approved by DiscoveryHD for 100%(HDV) content and they are thought to be the pickiest. Also, what has developed in the last year is that all these cameras are being called aquisition devices of which, when getting to post, everyone changes codec and after the master is done, send it out whatever codec you need to satisfy the client. All the restrictions on HDV were from the problems that the Z1 had/has. I'm sure the BBC will come around soon and OK the Canons.

I hope this is true but this link suggests not:

http://www.discoverychannel.ca/_incl...d_Specs_04.doc

HDV footage content is limited.

Brian Drysdale · January 18th, 2007, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Davies

Is this just a problem if the final broadcast is to be in HD? As far as I know, the program would go out in 2008 so I guess it will be PAL SD.

It isn't a problem for SD, it's a HD issue for the BBC. People are pretty annoyed over the Super 16, even though the BBC uses it for slow motion in their HD productions.

The Canon to HD SDI holds up against an F900 on HDCam... that is until you record the HD SDI off the F900. I expect by the time the BBC goes fully HD, the Canon H1 will be replaced by a new model and a new wavelet compression format will have replaced HDV for low budget production.

Andrew Davies · January 18th, 2007, 05:16 AM

So, in your opinion Brian, the XL H1 will be acceptable for a BBC SD production?

Alex Leith · January 18th, 2007, 06:05 AM

From experience, if you're going to use either DV or HDV in a UK terrestrial broadcast then you need to get clearance from the broadcaster beforehand.

Ofcom (the body that regulates UK TV standards) allow broadcasters to "get away" with a certain amount of material that they consider "lower-than-broadcast-quality" (basically stuff that is not originated on high-end cameras). But the broadcasters have to justify why they needed to shoot it with a lower quality camera.

And don't think that you can necessarily "get away with it", either. Even if you shoot HDV and edit DVCPro50 or 10bit SD, most engineers worth their salt will be able to spot what format it was originated on - and they may reject it - even though it looks great!

It's always best to check. And if the H1 isn't good enough then you need to sting them with a higher budget! :-D

Andrew Davies · January 18th, 2007, 06:31 AM

I guess the problem is that the BEEB in Wales probably hasn't come across wildlife footage shot on a XL H1 with still lenses so will not be able to give an informed response. I'm trying to ascertain whether anyone else has crossed this hurdle before.

This will be a low budget production with the wildlife footage shot by me over a couple of years taking advantage of good light conditions and good wildlife action. Money isn't there to buy or hire a high-end camera.

Alex Leith · January 18th, 2007, 06:45 AM

Personally I'd say that's justification enough to use HDV:

It's a long term project, where the producer (you) needs to have a camera on hand so that opportunities (in weather and wildlife action) are not missed waiting to hire a camera, and where the budget is not sufficient to support the purchase of the next level of camera (eg a Sony F330/F350).

BUT... I still think it might be a good idea to shoot some H1 footage and get their engineering department (or whatever it's called these days) to take a look at it, and approve it for SD acquisition on this project.

I recently saw a wildlife show shot in the Shetland Islands (incidently where I grew up) shot at least 50% on either an XL1S or an XL2. It was half about the wildlife and half about the guy shooting the wildlife.

Good luck!

Tony Davies-Patrick · January 18th, 2007, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Davies

I guess the problem is that the BEEB in Wales probably hasn't come across wildlife footage shot on a XL H1 with still lenses so will not be able to give an informed response. I'm trying to ascertain whether anyone else has crossed this hurdle before.

This will be a low budget production with the wildlife footage shot by me over a couple of years taking advantage of good light conditions and good wildlife action. Money isn't there to buy or hire a high-end camera.

Andrew, in your case, the XL-H1 + SLR lenses will be more enough quality (in fact, so would an SD XL2)...as long the end result has content that is interesting enough, beatifully shot and well edited. Take your XL-H1, go out there and get some great footage in the can!

Brian Drysdale · January 18th, 2007, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Davies

So, in your opinion Brian, the XL H1 will be acceptable for a BBC SD production?

Yes.

People having been shooting on Sony PD150s for SD broadcast on the BBC for years, so the XL H1 will be fine for SD.

Best way seems to be to keep it HD and then downconvert to SD for delivery, I assume on DigiBeta.

Andrew Davies · January 18th, 2007, 08:31 AM

Many thanks for the replies and the encouragement. The crux of the matter is that I don't own an XL H1 at the moment and my purchase rides on whether it is suitable for this project and for subsequent stock footage that I would try and sell through an agency such as Oxford Scientific Films.

What I could really do with is some sample footage to show the BEEB. I'll try contacting Canon now to see if they have anything relevant.

Andrew Davies · January 18th, 2007, 09:40 AM

Just rung Canon UK and was put through to the usual call centre assistant who logged my call (request for sample XL H1 footage) and said that someone would get back to me within the next 2 days!!!

John Miller · January 18th, 2007, 10:29 AM

Why not contact the BBC's wildlife unit in Bristol? They'd probably be able to give you an answer (they are the mecca for such things!)

January 18th, 2007, 06:05 AM	#23
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	From experience, if you're going to use either DV or HDV in a UK terrestrial broadcast then you need to get clearance from the broadcaster beforehand. Ofcom (the body that regulates UK TV standards) allow broadcasters to "get away" with a certain amount of material that they consider "lower-than-broadcast-quality" (basically stuff that is not originated on high-end cameras). But the broadcasters have to justify why they needed to shoot it with a lower quality camera. And don't think that you can necessarily "get away with it", either. Even if you shoot HDV and edit DVCPro50 or 10bit SD, most engineers worth their salt will be able to spot what format it was originated on - and they may reject it - even though it looks great! It's always best to check. And if the H1 isn't good enough then you need to sting them with a higher budget! :-D __________________ Alex

January 18th, 2007, 06:45 AM	#25
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	Personally I'd say that's justification enough to use HDV: It's a long term project, where the producer (you) needs to have a camera on hand so that opportunities (in weather and wildlife action) are not missed waiting to hire a camera, and where the budget is not sufficient to support the purchase of the next level of camera (eg a Sony F330/F350). BUT... I still think it might be a good idea to shoot some H1 footage and get their engineering department (or whatever it's called these days) to take a look at it, and approve it for SD acquisition on this project. I recently saw a wildlife show shot in the Shetland Islands (incidently where I grew up) shot at least 50% on either an XL1S or an XL2. It was half about the wildlife and half about the guy shooting the wildlife. Good luck! __________________ Alex

January 17th, 2007, 06:46 PM	#16
Andrew Davies Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wales Posts: 104	I guess the footage would be cut into digibeta taken of the human interest side of the program filmed by the companies own cameramen. So, will the wildlife footage be of high enough quality to be accepted?

January 17th, 2007, 07:39 PM	#17
Jim Martin Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Burbank, CA 91502 Posts: 949	The H1 was built for the broadcasters. It is now approved by DiscoveryHD for 100%(HDV) content and they are thought to be the pickiest. Also, what has developed in the last year is that all these cameras are being called aquisition devices of which, when getting to post, everyone changes codec and after the master is done, send it out whatever codec you need to satisfy the client. All the restrictions on HDV were from the problems that the Z1 had/has. I'm sure the BBC will come around soon and OK the Canons.

January 18th, 2007, 03:40 AM	#19
Andrew Davies Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wales Posts: 104	Is this just a problem if the final broadcast is to be in HD? As far as I know, the program would go out in 2008 so I guess it will be PAL SD.

January 18th, 2007, 05:16 AM	#22
Andrew Davies Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wales Posts: 104	So, in your opinion Brian, the XL H1 will be acceptable for a BBC SD production?

January 18th, 2007, 06:31 AM	#24
Andrew Davies Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wales Posts: 104	I guess the problem is that the BEEB in Wales probably hasn't come across wildlife footage shot on a XL H1 with still lenses so will not be able to give an informed response. I'm trying to ascertain whether anyone else has crossed this hurdle before. This will be a low budget production with the wildlife footage shot by me over a couple of years taking advantage of good light conditions and good wildlife action. Money isn't there to buy or hire a high-end camera.

January 18th, 2007, 08:31 AM	#28
Andrew Davies Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wales Posts: 104	Many thanks for the replies and the encouragement. The crux of the matter is that I don't own an XL H1 at the moment and my purchase rides on whether it is suitable for this project and for subsequent stock footage that I would try and sell through an agency such as Oxford Scientific Films. What I could really do with is some sample footage to show the BEEB. I'll try contacting Canon now to see if they have anything relevant.

January 18th, 2007, 09:40 AM	#29
Andrew Davies Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wales Posts: 104	Just rung Canon UK and was put through to the usual call centre assistant who logged my call (request for sample XL H1 footage) and said that someone would get back to me within the next 2 days!!!

January 18th, 2007, 10:29 AM	#30
John Miller Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hillsborough, NC, USA Posts: 968	Why not contact the BBC's wildlife unit in Bristol? They'd probably be able to give you an answer (they are the mecca for such things!)