Firestore work yet?

Steve Rosen · July 30th, 2006, 10:41 AM

I'm gathering that, in general, this technology isn't there yet - in the sense that it can be relied upon in a professional situation.

I, for one, do not enjoy the embarrassment that is inevitable when I have to fool around with a piece of equipment - on other people's time - trying to get it to work properly because it isn't "user friendly"... There is no better way to get a reputation as a chump...

Too bad, it would be nice to have a tapeless answer, but it looks like I'll have to wait a while...

I'm hoping that there's a portable light weight HD-SDI device waiting in the wings.

John Benton · July 30th, 2006, 12:39 PM

Amen Steve,

This is what everybody is waiting for...
Whomever offers the first reasonable solution is going to hit Gold
(esp with the new Canon cameras too)

Dan Keaton · July 30th, 2006, 03:19 PM

I believe that I can help here.

I have been testing my XL H1 with the NAB version of FS-4 Pro HD.

This was originally a FS-4 Pro, then upgraded via the latest software to FS-4 Pro HD as required.

I have been testing the two units for the past two hours.

Using the latest version of the manual, it states that you should plug in the cables into both units.
(As a side note, the 6 pin firewire conntector goes into DV I/O and must not be in Computer I/O for recording from the camera.)

Then the manual states that you should power on the camera, then the FS-4.

I found that this does not work. The unit will not record. It goes into record mode but the counter does not move, and it does not record.

If I power up the XL H1 first, then the FS-4, then I can then cycle the power on the XL H1, and then it will work.

When it does work, the counter will increment on the FS-4.

I use the "sync" mode, so there should be a "Y" in the second position of the screen, in the upper left area.

When the recording is done, there should be some activity on the FS-4. This is a series of bars (a progress bar) that goes across the bottom of the screen as a recording is finalized.

Please try this and report back.

Based on my testing, once I got it to work, it continued to work fine.

So, from now on, I will do a short test recording before any actual live work.

I have not had any trouble transferring the files to my computer using the manuals procedures.

Jack Foley · July 30th, 2006, 04:35 PM

Dan, yes, this is the way it worked here, too.

Then we grilled the FS-4 Pro HD after connection the wrong firewire plug with the PC.

On our device both firewird plugs, the one for the cam and the one for the PC, are the same size (the big ones), directly located next to each other. And my colleague didn't exactly check which one he used, only after it started to smell like burned circuits.

A major design failure on this device if you ask me.

Steve Rosen · July 30th, 2006, 05:51 PM

Too many "oopses" and not enough "yeahs" if you ask me...

Firestore (and many others as a matter of fact) needs to understand that professionals actually depend on their equipment to work when it's needed - and quickly... It's often too much of a hassle for me to have to check and be sure I've got the right Scene File up and the right filter in the matte box - I do not need any hoops to jump thru...

Again, too bad, woulda been a nice labor saver for my next job.. But since I've been shooting HDV daily for over 7 months now without a single drop-out, I can live with tape a little longer...

Dan Keaton · July 30th, 2006, 07:41 PM

Dear Steve,

I would not give up so soon on the Firestore.

Once I determined that the manual's order of power-up was wrong, at least for the XL H1, it has worked fine, albiet for under 10 more tries. I will be doing some more testing later.

I really do like to be able to record for longer than one tapes length, usually 63 minutes. This can be a big help in event videos, as you well know.

I also like to have a backup in case there is trouble with the tape.

Connecting the FS-4 up to a computer, and uploading the files is very easy, and much quicker than capturing the files.

Steve, I will be happy to mail you mine, if you wish to test one for a while.

Other features are nice, such as being able to record x number of secords prior to hitting the record button. This may come in handy for event videos.

Another feature is time-lapse recording, although I have not tried it yet.

Steve Rosen · July 30th, 2006, 09:26 PM

Dan, thanx for the offer, it is very generous of you. I have a pretty good working relationship with the dealer that I buy my equipment from (an advantage of not buying from box stores). I am waiting for an update from them relative to using the Firestore with the equipment I use (H1, of course, and FCP) - there is apparently a software update.

I posted this question initially in the XL H1 forum because I wanted to hear from people that actually use the camera that I have, and I do appreciate the responses that have been posted here...

I am always cautious about utilizing new technology... I make documentaries where it is sometimes necessary to be up and running while jumping out of a car, or do an interview with a person who has begrudgingly alloted only 10 minutes and is not likely patient while I get set up... These are the concerns that drive my decision making, and I don't like to be the one doing the "beta" testing...

Thanx again, I may take you up on your offer if you're not careful...

John Richard · July 31st, 2006, 07:30 AM

Well the story for the Firestore and us gets worse!
Having given up on the Firestore for a shoot this past weekend, we shot HDV directly to tape in 60i mode.

Then went to capture the tapes with the same Canopus Edius program that worked fine before and now I can not get the camera to connect to the computer. Tried every method of shutting both computer and cam down, unplugging firewire from both, startup, plug in camera, then into computer and visa versa - nada - it's as if the H1's firewire port/circuit is not working.

One thing noted that I don't remember happening before is that while the tape is loaded and the H1 is in Playback mode, as soon as the firewire is plugged into the computer, a flashing "HDV in" and the channel "1/2" also starts flashing on and off. Uplug the firewire cable from the H1 or computer and the flashing stops. I have tried resetting the menu >Playback>Signal>HDV (and also Auto) and still get the flashing messages.

Now I am in real trouble. I have 2 projects backed up on delivery. And we are supposed to shoot a 10 min. short screenplay winner for a film festival in a couple of weeks. And I can't get anything out of the H1's firewire port which I had no trouble with until I tried to use the Firestore4-ProHD.

Will a trip to Canon Irvine in person result in getting fast service (I've registered the camera and joined the XL Club which is supposed to put you higher in the cue.)

Steve Rosen · July 31st, 2006, 08:54 AM

The good news is that Canon is very fast in there service dept, at least they have been for me in the past...

I would recommend finding another sollution for playing back your tapes, as a back up at least.. the Sony deck works well..

as for the FireStore burning out something in the firewire port, that seems odd to me - more likely a glitch at Canon's end - I've had several firewire problems over the years with decks - I'm sure you've tried other cables, good luck..

John Richard · July 31st, 2006, 04:13 PM

Is the fact that I get a flashing message "HDV In" and flashing audio channel "1/2" whenever the firewire is connected between cam and computer and then stops flashing when the firewire is disconnected from computer indicate something like a wrong setting?

I have set the Playback>Signal setup to both "HDV" and then "Auto".

Is there something I am missing in my setup?

Dan Keaton · July 31st, 2006, 07:47 PM

I have tried to duplicate your setup.

I am in VCR/Play mode.

I have a tape in the XL H1 that was recorded in HDV.

I have a 4 pin to 4 pin firewire cable connected from the computer to the XL H1.

I then turn on the H1.

Once the H1 is on, I press Menu and select "Signal Setup".

My Playback STD (under Signal Setup) is greyed out, as is HD Down Conv.

After I get out of the menus, I see HDV/DV IN and it is not flashing, nor is CH1/2.

If I turn off the H1, remove the firewire cable and power back up, then I can change
the Playback STD and HD Down Conv.

But when the firewire is connected and my computer is active I can not change these settings (and I am in VCR/Play mode).

My settings, which are visable when I do not have a firewire connection, are

Playback STD: Auto
AV-DV: OFF
HD Down Conv: Off

My settings, which are greyed out when I do have a firewire connection, are

Playback STD: ---
HD Down Conv: ---

I hope this helps.

John Richard · July 31st, 2006, 08:02 PM

Thanks much Dan!

It helps in that it tells me something is wrong I think with my camera after the FS-4ProHD attempt.

So darned wierd - everything was working fine with connection between edit bay computer and 67" Samsung DLP with firewire input. After Firestore attempt neither the computer nor the DLP will see the connection to the H1.

For what it's worth - beware when you make your first attempt with connecting the Firestore FS-4ProHD .... be sure you have some spare time between a need for the H1.

After a trip to Canon Service - I will post on the culprit.

I've gone over and over the setup menus till I am crazed - nothing I see is wrong.

Thanks to all who have offered their help... great forum!

Dan Keaton · July 31st, 2006, 08:17 PM

John,

I just sent you a private email with my phone number.

Please call me if you wish.

Dan

Dan Keaton · August 1st, 2006, 05:20 AM

John,

I recommend that you do the following before you send in your camera.

First call Canon support for assistance. If they can not help you, then consider performing a system reset on your XL H1. I would discuss this with Canon support before resetting your camera.

1. Copy all of your presets to a SD card.

2. Press the reset button on the XL H1.

This is located on the back side of the hand hold area of the camera.
You will have to remove the lens to access the reset button.

3. Try again to use firewire to connect to your computer.

I hope this helps.

Dan Keaton · August 1st, 2006, 03:32 PM

John,

Just to be certain, could you please try connecting to your computer again.

I want to be absolutely certain that your are in VCR/Play mode and not the remote control mode. Since the remote control mode is at the end of the dial, just like the VCR/Play position was on the XL1/Xl1s, I feel that this is an easy mistake to make.

I have a hard time believing that your XL H1 could be hurt by connecting a firewire and/or FS-4 to it. I assume that you plugged the 6-pin end of the firewire cable into the Data I/O and not the computer I/O.

So, I feel it is worth a quick test again to see it your camera is ok.

Have you called Canon?

July 30th, 2006, 03:19 PM	#18
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	I believe that I can help here. I have been testing my XL H1 with the NAB version of FS-4 Pro HD. This was originally a FS-4 Pro, then upgraded via the latest software to FS-4 Pro HD as required. I have been testing the two units for the past two hours. Using the latest version of the manual, it states that you should plug in the cables into both units. (As a side note, the 6 pin firewire conntector goes into DV I/O and must not be in Computer I/O for recording from the camera.) Then the manual states that you should power on the camera, then the FS-4. I found that this does not work. The unit will not record. It goes into record mode but the counter does not move, and it does not record. If I power up the XL H1 first, then the FS-4, then I can then cycle the power on the XL H1, and then it will work. When it does work, the counter will increment on the FS-4. I use the "sync" mode, so there should be a "Y" in the second position of the screen, in the upper left area. When the recording is done, there should be some activity on the FS-4. This is a series of bars (a progress bar) that goes across the bottom of the screen as a recording is finalized. Please try this and report back. Based on my testing, once I got it to work, it continued to work fine. So, from now on, I will do a short test recording before any actual live work. I have not had any trouble transferring the files to my computer using the manuals procedures. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 30th, 2006, 07:41 PM	#21
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Steve, I would not give up so soon on the Firestore. Once I determined that the manual's order of power-up was wrong, at least for the XL H1, it has worked fine, albiet for under 10 more tries. I will be doing some more testing later. I really do like to be able to record for longer than one tapes length, usually 63 minutes. This can be a big help in event videos, as you well know. I also like to have a backup in case there is trouble with the tape. Connecting the FS-4 up to a computer, and uploading the files is very easy, and much quicker than capturing the files. Steve, I will be happy to mail you mine, if you wish to test one for a while. Other features are nice, such as being able to record x number of secords prior to hitting the record button. This may come in handy for event videos. Another feature is time-lapse recording, although I have not tried it yet. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia Last edited by Dan Keaton; July 31st, 2006 at 06:53 AM.

July 31st, 2006, 07:47 PM	#26
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	I have tried to duplicate your setup. I am in VCR/Play mode. I have a tape in the XL H1 that was recorded in HDV. I have a 4 pin to 4 pin firewire cable connected from the computer to the XL H1. I then turn on the H1. Once the H1 is on, I press Menu and select "Signal Setup". My Playback STD (under Signal Setup) is greyed out, as is HD Down Conv. After I get out of the menus, I see HDV/DV IN and it is not flashing, nor is CH1/2. If I turn off the H1, remove the firewire cable and power back up, then I can change the Playback STD and HD Down Conv. But when the firewire is connected and my computer is active I can not change these settings (and I am in VCR/Play mode). My settings, which are visable when I do not have a firewire connection, are Playback STD: Auto AV-DV: OFF HD Down Conv: Off My settings, which are greyed out when I do have a firewire connection, are Playback STD: --- HD Down Conv: --- I hope this helps. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 31st, 2006, 08:17 PM	#28
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	John, I just sent you a private email with my phone number. Please call me if you wish. Dan __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

August 1st, 2006, 05:20 AM	#29
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	John, I recommend that you do the following before you send in your camera. First call Canon support for assistance. If they can not help you, then consider performing a system reset on your XL H1. I would discuss this with Canon support before resetting your camera. 1. Copy all of your presets to a SD card. 2. Press the reset button on the XL H1. This is located on the back side of the hand hold area of the camera. You will have to remove the lens to access the reset button. 3. Try again to use firewire to connect to your computer. I hope this helps. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 30th, 2006, 10:41 AM	#16
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	I'm gathering that, in general, this technology isn't there yet - in the sense that it can be relied upon in a professional situation. I, for one, do not enjoy the embarrassment that is inevitable when I have to fool around with a piece of equipment - on other people's time - trying to get it to work properly because it isn't "user friendly"... There is no better way to get a reputation as a chump... Too bad, it would be nice to have a tapeless answer, but it looks like I'll have to wait a while... I'm hoping that there's a portable light weight HD-SDI device waiting in the wings.

July 30th, 2006, 12:39 PM	#17
John Benton Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 658	Amen Steve, This is what everybody is waiting for... Whomever offers the first reasonable solution is going to hit Gold (esp with the new Canon cameras too)

July 30th, 2006, 04:35 PM	#19
Jack Foley Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 42	Dan, yes, this is the way it worked here, too. Then we grilled the FS-4 Pro HD after connection the wrong firewire plug with the PC. On our device both firewird plugs, the one for the cam and the one for the PC, are the same size (the big ones), directly located next to each other. And my colleague didn't exactly check which one he used, only after it started to smell like burned circuits. A major design failure on this device if you ask me.

July 30th, 2006, 05:51 PM	#20
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	Too many "oopses" and not enough "yeahs" if you ask me... Firestore (and many others as a matter of fact) needs to understand that professionals actually depend on their equipment to work when it's needed - and quickly... It's often too much of a hassle for me to have to check and be sure I've got the right Scene File up and the right filter in the matte box - I do not need any hoops to jump thru... Again, too bad, woulda been a nice labor saver for my next job.. But since I've been shooting HDV daily for over 7 months now without a single drop-out, I can live with tape a little longer...

July 30th, 2006, 09:26 PM	#22
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	Dan, thanx for the offer, it is very generous of you. I have a pretty good working relationship with the dealer that I buy my equipment from (an advantage of not buying from box stores). I am waiting for an update from them relative to using the Firestore with the equipment I use (H1, of course, and FCP) - there is apparently a software update. I posted this question initially in the XL H1 forum because I wanted to hear from people that actually use the camera that I have, and I do appreciate the responses that have been posted here... I am always cautious about utilizing new technology... I make documentaries where it is sometimes necessary to be up and running while jumping out of a car, or do an interview with a person who has begrudgingly alloted only 10 minutes and is not likely patient while I get set up... These are the concerns that drive my decision making, and I don't like to be the one doing the "beta" testing... Thanx again, I may take you up on your offer if you're not careful...

July 31st, 2006, 07:30 AM	#23
John Richard Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Incline Village, Nevada Posts: 604	Well the story for the Firestore and us gets worse! Having given up on the Firestore for a shoot this past weekend, we shot HDV directly to tape in 60i mode. Then went to capture the tapes with the same Canopus Edius program that worked fine before and now I can not get the camera to connect to the computer. Tried every method of shutting both computer and cam down, unplugging firewire from both, startup, plug in camera, then into computer and visa versa - nada - it's as if the H1's firewire port/circuit is not working. One thing noted that I don't remember happening before is that while the tape is loaded and the H1 is in Playback mode, as soon as the firewire is plugged into the computer, a flashing "HDV in" and the channel "1/2" also starts flashing on and off. Uplug the firewire cable from the H1 or computer and the flashing stops. I have tried resetting the menu >Playback>Signal>HDV (and also Auto) and still get the flashing messages. Now I am in real trouble. I have 2 projects backed up on delivery. And we are supposed to shoot a 10 min. short screenplay winner for a film festival in a couple of weeks. And I can't get anything out of the H1's firewire port which I had no trouble with until I tried to use the Firestore4-ProHD. Will a trip to Canon Irvine in person result in getting fast service (I've registered the camera and joined the XL Club which is supposed to put you higher in the cue.)

July 31st, 2006, 08:54 AM	#24
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	The good news is that Canon is very fast in there service dept, at least they have been for me in the past... I would recommend finding another sollution for playing back your tapes, as a back up at least.. the Sony deck works well.. as for the FireStore burning out something in the firewire port, that seems odd to me - more likely a glitch at Canon's end - I've had several firewire problems over the years with decks - I'm sure you've tried other cables, good luck..

July 31st, 2006, 04:13 PM	#25
John Richard Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Incline Village, Nevada Posts: 604	Is the fact that I get a flashing message "HDV In" and flashing audio channel "1/2" whenever the firewire is connected between cam and computer and then stops flashing when the firewire is disconnected from computer indicate something like a wrong setting? I have set the Playback>Signal setup to both "HDV" and then "Auto". Is there something I am missing in my setup?

July 31st, 2006, 08:02 PM	#27
John Richard Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Incline Village, Nevada Posts: 604	Thanks much Dan! It helps in that it tells me something is wrong I think with my camera after the FS-4ProHD attempt. So darned wierd - everything was working fine with connection between edit bay computer and 67" Samsung DLP with firewire input. After Firestore attempt neither the computer nor the DLP will see the connection to the H1. For what it's worth - beware when you make your first attempt with connecting the Firestore FS-4ProHD .... be sure you have some spare time between a need for the H1. After a trip to Canon Service - I will post on the culprit. I've gone over and over the setup menus till I am crazed - nothing I see is wrong. Thanks to all who have offered their help... great forum!

August 1st, 2006, 03:32 PM	#30
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	John, Just to be certain, could you please try connecting to your computer again. I want to be absolutely certain that your are in VCR/Play mode and not the remote control mode. Since the remote control mode is at the end of the dial, just like the VCR/Play position was on the XL1/Xl1s, I feel that this is an easy mistake to make. I have a hard time believing that your XL H1 could be hurt by connecting a firewire and/or FS-4 to it. I assume that you plugged the 6-pin end of the firewire cable into the Data I/O and not the computer I/O. So, I feel it is worth a quick test again to see it your camera is ok. Have you called Canon? __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia