mixing and matching HDV cameras at DVinfo.net

Spike Spiegel · June 25th, 2006, 02:55 AM

I'm in a bit of a predicament, I hope you guys can help out. I'm about to buy 2 HDV cameras, and one of them is the JVC HD100. I can either buy 1 JVC and 1 XLh1 or 2 JVCs. The shoot that i'm doing is going to be done in HD, cut in HD, and output in SD. I know the Canon doesn't do 720p and the JVC does, so will this become a problem when both cams are acquiring principal photography in HD?

Woudl the best route be to get the 2 diff cams, and simply switch em to the SD mode for the job?

Any advice appreciated, thanks!

James Lundy · June 25th, 2006, 03:45 AM

Why don't to try 1 XL-H1 and 1 Sony Z1, as they both shoot 1080. I can only imagine that this would better than one at 1080, and the other 720.

Mathieu Ghekiere · June 25th, 2006, 07:25 AM

I would go for 2 HD-100's...
Not because I don't like the Canon, but it's easier to have 2 same camera's for matching, same accesoires, same deck's, same postproduction flow,...

Daniel Epstein · June 25th, 2006, 09:15 AM

Spike,
I agree with Mathieu.
Since you are committed to one JVC you might as well go with another JVC since you can share batts and accessories between the two and the post will be the same process from each camera. Not sure which edit systems handle the JVC 24 and 30 modes correctly at this point.
If you don't go with a JVC then you can mix and match the Canon and Sony as James suggests but you don't get the advantage of shared accesories (Batts and Chargers) as easily and you currently have to shoot in 1080i 60 or 50 to keep the Post flow the same on both units.

Kevin Wild · June 25th, 2006, 10:22 AM

I also agree. As a very happy owner of an H1, I love to recommend that any time possible. However, it's always better to stick with the same camera if doing multicam.

I also agree that if you are going to mix/match, definitely go with the Canon/Sony pair. I successfully matched these 2 cameras recently shooting an opera. The Canon was closeups, the SONY was LS's and it matches great.

KW

Spike Spiegel · June 25th, 2006, 10:38 AM

thanks for the advice, it makes perfect sense. However, the production is not to be in HD, in that case, can't I just switch both cams to SD mode, and the output will basically be the same? I just need to confirm that..

Pete Bauer · June 25th, 2006, 10:48 AM

Not saying it can't be done, but I agree with the other guys that you're adding painful complexity to your process by using different cameras. Different sensors, different A-D conversion, different in-camera processing (gamma curve algorithms etc), and different formats.

Personally, I even find it a bother to match a Canon XL2 and Canon XL H1, much less footage from cameras built by different manufacturers. You can do it, but are pretty much guaranteed to need a lot of extra attention to detail and time to get all the footage looking consistent in the end.

Barlow Elton · June 25th, 2006, 10:49 AM

24F downconverts very, very well to 720p. If it looks sharper than the JVC just soften the image slightly.(don't over-enhance the JVC) You will likely need to cc a little in post to roughly match the look of both cameras, but I think it's achievable. The bigger problem you might have is that the JVC is actually noisier than the XLH1 so you might have to make even more adjustments on the set or in post due to this.

Like the others said though, it'll probably save you a lot of trouble just to shoot with two HD100's.

One word of advice: Finish everything entirely in HD and then downconvert to SD. You will have a nice HD master if ever needed without any further work required.

Spike Spiegel · June 25th, 2006, 11:07 AM

I'm willing to do the extra work to match the cameras simply because I don't want to end up with 2 of the same kind of camera, I would very much like to "futureproof" by having 1 of each kind.

I'm a bit confused about the downconversion though, if everything is shot in HD mode, when capturing from the canon, how is the downconversion done to be brought down to 720p, especially if theres existing jvc footage in the timeline...

thanks

Barlow Elton · June 25th, 2006, 12:08 PM

Get your Canon and JVC footage captured this way:http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....40&postcount=7

Instead of outputting 1080p 24p files from HDV 24F m2t's, just have MPEG Streamclip scale it to progressive 720 24p. (23.976 for NTSC drop frame timecode compatibility)

Take your JVC m2t's and export to PhotoJPEG or DVCProHD, AIC etc. and simply export the Canon m2t's to the same frame size and codec. (1280x720)

Spike Spiegel · June 25th, 2006, 12:17 PM

Barlow, that link you mentioned, its for Macs, is there a similar pathway for windows as well? Its making a lot more sense now than before, so thanks for the advice.

Barlow Elton · June 25th, 2006, 12:23 PM

MPEG Streamclip is cross platform. You can capture m2t's with CapDVHS or something like that. Do a search for HDV capture programs on Windows. There's always Vegas or Premiere Pro to get the raw m2t's, but you will need to scale the Canon footage to 720p or upscale the JVC footage 1080p. I recommend the former.

Once you've got all the footage in a good intermeditate codec, (it might be possible to convert both camera's m2t's to CineForm which is the best intermediate for Windows) then you can edit in your program of choice.

Spike Spiegel · June 25th, 2006, 12:28 PM

yeah i think Cineform will the answer to all problems. I had a quick question about the xlh1. It has HD-SDI out, but to really make use of that, you would need a deck that has that sort of input, right? Where does the decklink hd pro come in?

Barlow Elton · June 25th, 2006, 02:51 PM

The only way the Decklink Pro comes into play is if you are willing to be tethered to a computer and want to capture uncompressed live camera head signal, which can be recorded to various formats that are technically better (as far as negating the possibility of motion artifacts) than HDV.

I've done this with my Kona card and FCP, but as you would expect, using a workstation-level computer for capturing footage in the field is not exactly a trivial undertaking.

SDI cards are great for live scrubbing/monitoring of HD timelines however. This is the only way to go if you need an accurate HD signal to reference.

June 25th, 2006, 02:55 AM	#1
Spike Spiegel Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 429	mixing and matching HDV cameras I'm in a bit of a predicament, I hope you guys can help out. I'm about to buy 2 HDV cameras, and one of them is the JVC HD100. I can either buy 1 JVC and 1 XLh1 or 2 JVCs. The shoot that i'm doing is going to be done in HD, cut in HD, and output in SD. I know the Canon doesn't do 720p and the JVC does, so will this become a problem when both cams are acquiring principal photography in HD? Woudl the best route be to get the 2 diff cams, and simply switch em to the SD mode for the job? Any advice appreciated, thanks!

June 25th, 2006, 07:25 AM	#3
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	I would go for 2 HD-100's... Not because I don't like the Canon, but it's easier to have 2 same camera's for matching, same accesoires, same deck's, same postproduction flow,... __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

June 25th, 2006, 10:48 AM	#7
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Not saying it can't be done, but I agree with the other guys that you're adding painful complexity to your process by using different cameras. Different sensors, different A-D conversion, different in-camera processing (gamma curve algorithms etc), and different formats. Personally, I even find it a bother to match a Canon XL2 and Canon XL H1, much less footage from cameras built by different manufacturers. You can do it, but are pretty much guaranteed to need a lot of extra attention to detail and time to get all the footage looking consistent in the end. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

June 25th, 2006, 02:51 PM	#14
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	The only way the Decklink Pro comes into play is if you are willing to be tethered to a computer and want to capture uncompressed live camera head signal, which can be recorded to various formats that are technically better (as far as negating the possibility of motion artifacts) than HDV. I've done this with my Kona card and FCP, but as you would expect, using a workstation-level computer for capturing footage in the field is not exactly a trivial undertaking. SDI cards are great for live scrubbing/monitoring of HD timelines however. This is the only way to go if you need an accurate HD signal to reference. Last edited by Barlow Elton; June 25th, 2006 at 10:07 PM.

June 25th, 2006, 03:45 AM	#2
James Lundy Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Lothian - Bonnie Scotland Posts: 51	Why don't to try 1 XL-H1 and 1 Sony Z1, as they both shoot 1080. I can only imagine that this would better than one at 1080, and the other 720.

June 25th, 2006, 09:15 AM	#4
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	Spike, I agree with Mathieu. Since you are committed to one JVC you might as well go with another JVC since you can share batts and accessories between the two and the post will be the same process from each camera. Not sure which edit systems handle the JVC 24 and 30 modes correctly at this point. If you don't go with a JVC then you can mix and match the Canon and Sony as James suggests but you don't get the advantage of shared accesories (Batts and Chargers) as easily and you currently have to shoot in 1080i 60 or 50 to keep the Post flow the same on both units.

June 25th, 2006, 10:22 AM	#5
Kevin Wild Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 540	I also agree. As a very happy owner of an H1, I love to recommend that any time possible. However, it's always better to stick with the same camera if doing multicam. I also agree that if you are going to mix/match, definitely go with the Canon/Sony pair. I successfully matched these 2 cameras recently shooting an opera. The Canon was closeups, the SONY was LS's and it matches great. KW

June 25th, 2006, 10:38 AM	#6
Spike Spiegel Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 429	thanks for the advice, it makes perfect sense. However, the production is not to be in HD, in that case, can't I just switch both cams to SD mode, and the output will basically be the same? I just need to confirm that..

June 25th, 2006, 10:49 AM	#8
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	24F downconverts very, very well to 720p. If it looks sharper than the JVC just soften the image slightly.(don't over-enhance the JVC) You will likely need to cc a little in post to roughly match the look of both cameras, but I think it's achievable. The bigger problem you might have is that the JVC is actually noisier than the XLH1 so you might have to make even more adjustments on the set or in post due to this. Like the others said though, it'll probably save you a lot of trouble just to shoot with two HD100's. One word of advice: Finish everything entirely in HD and then downconvert to SD. You will have a nice HD master if ever needed without any further work required.

June 25th, 2006, 11:07 AM	#9
Spike Spiegel Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 429	I'm willing to do the extra work to match the cameras simply because I don't want to end up with 2 of the same kind of camera, I would very much like to "futureproof" by having 1 of each kind. I'm a bit confused about the downconversion though, if everything is shot in HD mode, when capturing from the canon, how is the downconversion done to be brought down to 720p, especially if theres existing jvc footage in the timeline... thanks

June 25th, 2006, 12:08 PM	#10
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Get your Canon and JVC footage captured this way:http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....40&postcount=7 Instead of outputting 1080p 24p files from HDV 24F m2t's, just have MPEG Streamclip scale it to progressive 720 24p. (23.976 for NTSC drop frame timecode compatibility) Take your JVC m2t's and export to PhotoJPEG or DVCProHD, AIC etc. and simply export the Canon m2t's to the same frame size and codec. (1280x720)

June 25th, 2006, 12:17 PM	#11
Spike Spiegel Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 429	Barlow, that link you mentioned, its for Macs, is there a similar pathway for windows as well? Its making a lot more sense now than before, so thanks for the advice.

June 25th, 2006, 12:23 PM	#12
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	MPEG Streamclip is cross platform. You can capture m2t's with CapDVHS or something like that. Do a search for HDV capture programs on Windows. There's always Vegas or Premiere Pro to get the raw m2t's, but you will need to scale the Canon footage to 720p or upscale the JVC footage 1080p. I recommend the former. Once you've got all the footage in a good intermeditate codec, (it might be possible to convert both camera's m2t's to CineForm which is the best intermediate for Windows) then you can edit in your program of choice.

June 25th, 2006, 12:28 PM	#13
Spike Spiegel Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 429	yeah i think Cineform will the answer to all problems. I had a quick question about the xlh1. It has HD-SDI out, but to really make use of that, you would need a deck that has that sort of input, right? Where does the decklink hd pro come in?