XLH1 playback on Sony HVR-M10U

[Ronald Cohn]

I recently got a sony M10U deck and have had problems playing back tapes recorded on the XLH1. I only record in 1080/60i not 30f or 24f. Tapes play back perfectly on the camera, but on the sony deck there are numerous freezes. I use Panasonic MQ tapes.

Have others had problems with the Sony deck or might this be a defective deck?

Ron Cohn

[Daniel Epstein]

Ron,
How do you decide this is the deck or the camera? Do you have access to any other decks besides these two. It is possible it is the Sony. It is equally possible it is your XLH1. Most machines playback on themselves. It is only when you play them in other machines that you discover if they are compatible. Does a tape recorded on the Sony playback on the XLH1? Do you have the same problems if you record in DV on the XLH1. Once you figure out which is out of alignment then you will know which one to get adjusted/replaced etc. It is best to make test recordings so you can demonstrate the issue to the people who need to get your stuff fixed.

[Ronald Cohn]

David,

Thanks for your advise. I have started to run some tests and have found that regular 4x3 SD recorded on the XLH1 will not play back on the Sony HVR-M10U deck without a lot of drop-outs. Also the tape played back on a Sony miniDV cam plays back badly, just like on the deck.

So far the data show that the XLH1 is most likely the probem. SD tapes from a Panasonic DVX 100A play back perfectly on everything. Also, the XLH1 SD tape plays back almost perfectly on a JVC deck. I'll let you know the final outcome.

Ron Cohn

[Jeffrey Santoro]

I was told by Sony the M10U deck has been discontinued and the two new HDV decks will be here really soon. Canon told me directly that 24F footage shot on the XLH1 will not playback on the two new Sony decks either. This is just awful.

[Daniel Epstein]

Ronald and Jeffrey,
Ronald, you problem is definitely different than Jeffrey's issue with the new decks.
I hope you don't have too many problems getting Canon to replace or fix your camera. They do have a loaner program so you don't have to live without a unit while they decide what to do with it

Jeffrey,
Sorry to hear that Sony and Canon can't get together on the new decks. I really don't know why they can't get together. After all the optical image stabilization on the Sony cameras is based on Canon technology why not share the frame rate playback in HDV. If it is true this is Sony and Canon both being short sighted.

[Steve Rosen]

I don't like Panasonic tapes. Even with the 100A I didn't like them. I had to buy a Panasonic deck because they gummed up my DSR40... Although I know many people do use the Panasonic tapes with the H1, I use ONLY Sony HD tapes and Digital Master tapes.

I use a Sony deck with no problems - but one.. It will not play back SD footage shot on the H1 well, although SD seems to play back fine in the camera. I haven't worried much about it because I've dedicated this camera to HDV only, but it does look like head alignment could be a cross-platform problem.

Try cleaning your heads and retesting with Sony tapes. If that doesn't work it's back to Canon - They are very fast (usually 3-4 days).. Steve Rosen

[Daniel Epstein]

Originally Posted by Steve Rosen

I don't like Panasonic tapes. Even with the 100A I didn't like them. I had to buy a Panasonic deck because they gummed up my DSR40... Although I know many people do use the Panasonic tapes with the H1, I use ONLY Sony HD tapes and Digital Master tapes.

I use a Sony deck with no problems - but one.. It will not play back SD footage shot on the H1 well, although SD seems to play back fine in the camera. I haven't worried much about it because I've dedicated this camera to HDV only, but it does look like head alignment could be a cross-platform problem.

Try cleaning your heads and retesting with Sony tapes. If that doesn't work it's back to Canon - They are very fast (usually 3-4 days).. Steve Rosen

Steve,
Just so you know, Canon has assured me that the XLH1 is designed to be DV Compatible with Sony so your camera sounds like it has similar issues to
Ronald if DV isn't compatible. Definitely worth bringing up with Canon. HDV is compatible in 60I but not 30F 24F.
As for your tape bias.. the different manufacturers seem to have different lubricants (especially in the early days) which when mixed together caused a chemical reaction in the tape path. If you can stay with one manufacturer this is unlikely to happen. Unfortunately I don't always have a choice as to what tape the client provides and luckily haven't had any bad reactions from tape in a long time.
I actually like the Panasonic Master tapes because nothing has gone wrong with them. I haven't recorded as much HDV with the camera as I expected but I haven't seen any problems with Dropout on HDV even with cheap tapes.
I have been in very few situations where the tape brand was the difference between working and not. The few times I had problems with tape in Betacam was with different manufacturers at differnt times Sony included.
I used to think that Sony was better at Beta SP because they had designed the format. It was logical but alas the conclusion in my experience was wrong. I did stay with them for DVCAM though.

Dan

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Daniel Epstein

If it is true this is Sony and Canon both being short sighted.

Canon went outside the "1080 HDV" standard with 24F so it not surprising that Sony doesn't support Canon. (That might not have been the best decision. Using 3:2 pulldown would have kept 24F completely compatible with ALL 1080i HDV VTRs and camcorders.)

Yet, as you say, it means Sony loses the opportunity to sell VTRs.

The reality is "HDV" is a marketing term that ONLY means low-cost HD on MiniDv tapes. We now have 4 versions: Sony, Canon, JVC HDV, and JVC ProHD. The reality is all the companies are playing hardball. Canon's problem is that unless Sony or JVC supply a VTR -- you don't have the option of anything but their camcorder.

JVC, unlike Canon, decided to support 24fps within the HDV and MPEG-2 specs. This means ANY HDV/MPEG-2 compatible system should work from day 1. Yet, FCP still doesn't work with JVC 24p. So even playing by the rules can create problems for customers.

DV may be the last industry standard. From now on it's closed systems. I do optical disk, so you do P2. You guys do optical disc and P2 -- so I'll do hard disk. You want my camcorder -- you buy your whole video system from me. And, once you make you decision, I've got you by the b*alls for life. No more DV as a common denominator we all support.

This will hit Canon buyers the hardest, because all the others have traditionally had a full range of camcorders and VTRs. I don't expect either JVC or Sony to support Canon's 24F. They'll let Canon dangle slowly in the wind. Of course, they will do the same to each other! JVC and Sony agree on an HDV spec of 2 flavors -- sounds good. Sounds like DV and DVCAM. Nope! They are incompatible.

[Daniel Epstein]

Steve,
I agree with you that everyone is playing hardball.
What I don't understand is Canon not deciding to make a deck? The XLH1 as a tape deck is actually pretty good . Lop off the CCD's, make it a box with connectors and sell it it as a standalone unit. Maybe beef up the transport a little. It would go a long way towards making their HDV 24F a useful recording standard for those who don't want to keep the camera in the edit room.
The fact that they haven't made a deck makes me think they don't understand how people work. Frankly I am pretty sure they could give Sony the specs on HDV24F in some deal to make 1/2 inch HD lenses for XDCAM HD. However since the consumer division is in control of the XLh1 and the Broadcast division is in control of the lenses Canon probably couldn't get cooperation within its own company to pull this off. Or worse they have signed some kind of non-compete clause to keep Sony happy recommending the Canon Broadcast Lenses.
Of course if they come out with a harddrive solution which actually keeps the timecode from the tape then maybe we don't need a deck. It would be nice if they at least announced their plans like everyone else at NAB.

Dan

[Shawn Alyasiri]

Hey Canon - make a deck...

It'll play your 1080i, 24F & 30F content, and will presumably play back Sony 1080 60i content as well (and miniDV) - you'd corner the market... (other than JVC playback) and CAJ stock would go higher than it's already year-high trading...

You only have $58B in market capital - put $15M into the line and everyone on this forum will buy one - it will replace decks in everyone's inventory. Put component, S-Vid & composite inputs with balanced audio I/O and we'll buy it for event recording as well.

I only want .005% of the first year's sales.... ;)

[Vincent Rozenberg]

Originally Posted by Shawn Alyasiri

Put component, S-Vid & composite inputs with balanced audio I/O and we'll buy it for event recording as well.

Canon has to rip apart the XL-H1 and leave the deck + SDI options there, now that;s a Live event recorder! ;-)

[Marlon Diaz]

can the Sony the M10U deck playback and record HD 1080i/30F(29.97) from a mini DV tape?
I have 20 tapes and I need to rent (miami area) a deck that can playback and record the format mentioned above.

[Chris Hurd]

The M10 cannot. You'll need an HVR-M35 or newer VTR.