A clue to 24F for Steve Mullen? at DVinfo.net

Barlow Elton · March 23rd, 2006, 10:40 AM

http://homepage.mac.com/pappasarts/....ROGRESSIVE.jpg

Whaddya think guys? Interesting...

Graeme Nattress · March 23rd, 2006, 11:03 AM

Makes me think they're using a "frame mode". Would be interesting to take a Canon 24f clip (normal, colour) and replace the interpolated field with different de-interlace algorithms to see which looks closest to the original. Can you suggest a good clip for me to downloadm, Barlow, and I'll try and post back results.

Graeme

Barlow Elton · March 23rd, 2006, 11:15 AM

I'll try to put up a few for you, Graeme. I'll post later on today.

Dan Euritt · March 23rd, 2006, 11:19 AM

is he trying to compare an h1 1080 frame to a jvc 720 frame?

Barlow Elton · March 23rd, 2006, 11:22 AM

If I'm not mistaken, he wants to "deinterlace" a 24F clip, render it out as a new clip, and then compare it to the original.

Graeme Nattress · March 23rd, 2006, 11:25 AM

Yes Barlow. I want to put my nice deinterlacer from my FinalTouch plugins onto it.

Graeme

Barlow Elton · March 23rd, 2006, 11:35 AM

Graeme, how about a 60i clip converted to 24p for reference too. I'd like to see if there's difference perceptually. btw, anyone with a nice 50i clip to share, that would be helpful too, as it might make a difference for some of us who are considering the PAL modification to know if it makes for better 24p conversion.

Graeme Nattress · March 23rd, 2006, 11:41 AM

I want to just look at de-interlacing and resolution, so 60i to 30p would be my preferable comparison to 24f and 24f with de-interlace.

Graeme

Barlow Elton · March 23rd, 2006, 12:10 PM

btw, Graeme, I'm not sure how you can deinterlace a progressive frame? It's already done so how are fields going to be separated and re-deinterlaced?

Graeme Nattress · March 23rd, 2006, 12:16 PM

Whenever I've seen 24f, it looks like on field is real, the other created. I want to throw away the created field and see if I can make it "better" from the real field.

Graeme

Ash Greyson · March 23rd, 2006, 02:09 PM

A red filter will inhibit a lot of green... that is what I have used them for in the past. If these cameras are using the green to do pixel shifting, wouldnt this make sense? The interlaced areas are where the green would fill up? I am not an engineer or anything, just a seasoned shooter. I am gonna throw a red filter on the HVX to see what happens...

ash =o)

Graeme Nattress · March 23rd, 2006, 02:13 PM

Looking at the really nice footage that Barlow sent, it looks to me like frame mode. It really looks to be doing some kind of blend - it doesn't look aliassed enough to be a de-interlace, but it's too aliassed to be a total field blend. It actually looks really good - not perfect, but really good.

Graeme

Thomas Smet · March 23rd, 2006, 03:46 PM

Hey could somebody shoot a scene with a red filter and then shoot the same locked down scene without the filter to compare the results and/or post two frame grabs? It would also be great if you could use the remote control to zoom in and out and match two frames at the exact same moment in motion. Then we can really figure out what is going on with the second field during motion.

Robert Sanders · March 23rd, 2006, 04:17 PM

Why would anybody shoot this way in the real world? Narrative, television, documentary, even videography, wedding?

Barlow Elton · March 23rd, 2006, 04:40 PM

I've been thinking the same thing, Robert. I think there's just a lot of geek interest in reverse engineering 24F. It's an esoteric puzzle that really amounts to very little.

Edit: My post was a little premature. Mike shot this way because he likes to push for a different look of Black and White in-camera. Using a red filter can enhance contrasts. He inadvertently stumbled onto something that messed with 24F however, and wanted people to see it, warts and all.

The geek interest thing was in reference not to the red filter/24F thing, but just this fascination with figuring out the 24F scheme.

March 23rd, 2006, 10:40 AM	#1
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	A clue to 24F for Steve Mullen? http://homepage.mac.com/pappasarts/....ROGRESSIVE.jpg Whaddya think guys? Interesting...

March 23rd, 2006, 11:03 AM	#2
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Makes me think they're using a "frame mode". Would be interesting to take a Canon 24f clip (normal, colour) and replace the interpolated field with different de-interlace algorithms to see which looks closest to the original. Can you suggest a good clip for me to downloadm, Barlow, and I'll try and post back results. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

March 23rd, 2006, 11:25 AM	#6
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Yes Barlow. I want to put my nice deinterlacer from my FinalTouch plugins onto it. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

March 23rd, 2006, 11:41 AM	#8
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	I want to just look at de-interlacing and resolution, so 60i to 30p would be my preferable comparison to 24f and 24f with de-interlace. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

March 23rd, 2006, 12:16 PM	#10
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Whenever I've seen 24f, it looks like on field is real, the other created. I want to throw away the created field and see if I can make it "better" from the real field. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

March 23rd, 2006, 11:15 AM	#3
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	I'll try to put up a few for you, Graeme. I'll post later on today.

March 23rd, 2006, 11:19 AM	#4
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	is he trying to compare an h1 1080 frame to a jvc 720 frame?

March 23rd, 2006, 11:22 AM	#5
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	If I'm not mistaken, he wants to "deinterlace" a 24F clip, render it out as a new clip, and then compare it to the original.

March 23rd, 2006, 11:35 AM	#7
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Graeme, how about a 60i clip converted to 24p for reference too. I'd like to see if there's difference perceptually. btw, anyone with a nice 50i clip to share, that would be helpful too, as it might make a difference for some of us who are considering the PAL modification to know if it makes for better 24p conversion.

March 23rd, 2006, 12:10 PM	#9
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	btw, Graeme, I'm not sure how you can deinterlace a progressive frame? It's already done so how are fields going to be separated and re-deinterlaced?

March 23rd, 2006, 02:09 PM	#11
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	A red filter will inhibit a lot of green... that is what I have used them for in the past. If these cameras are using the green to do pixel shifting, wouldnt this make sense? The interlaced areas are where the green would fill up? I am not an engineer or anything, just a seasoned shooter. I am gonna throw a red filter on the HVX to see what happens... ash =o)

March 23rd, 2006, 02:13 PM	#12
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Looking at the really nice footage that Barlow sent, it looks to me like frame mode. It really looks to be doing some kind of blend - it doesn't look aliassed enough to be a de-interlace, but it's too aliassed to be a total field blend. It actually looks really good - not perfect, but really good. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

March 23rd, 2006, 03:46 PM	#13
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Hey could somebody shoot a scene with a red filter and then shoot the same locked down scene without the filter to compare the results and/or post two frame grabs? It would also be great if you could use the remote control to zoom in and out and match two frames at the exact same moment in motion. Then we can really figure out what is going on with the second field during motion.

March 23rd, 2006, 04:17 PM	#14
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	Why would anybody shoot this way in the real world? Narrative, television, documentary, even videography, wedding? __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

March 23rd, 2006, 04:40 PM	#15
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	I've been thinking the same thing, Robert. I think there's just a lot of geek interest in reverse engineering 24F. It's an esoteric puzzle that really amounts to very little. Edit: My post was a little premature. Mike shot this way because he likes to push for a different look of Black and White in-camera. Using a red filter can enhance contrasts. He inadvertently stumbled onto something that messed with 24F however, and wanted people to see it, warts and all. The geek interest thing was in reference not to the red filter/24F thing, but just this fascination with figuring out the 24F scheme. Last edited by Barlow Elton; March 23rd, 2006 at 10:42 PM.