How Does 24F Compare With 24P Panny? at DVinfo.net

David Saraceno · February 26th, 2006, 05:33 PM

For those of you who have seen both, what is your objective assessment?

And further, when encode to SD progressive DVD on a Mac, what are we looking at?

thanks

Barlow Elton · February 26th, 2006, 08:40 PM

As far as motion rendition? Too close to care one way or another. 24F is virtual 24p, but I think the H1 has far more resolution when all's said and done. Of course, that isn't everything...but it's a nice start!

SD progressive 16x9 DVD's from 24F material are spectacular, as you would expect. HD-DVD progressive DVD's from 24F are spectacular too. I've made a few in DVDStudioPro 4 and been blown away. Too bad the players aren't here yet, but it works great with my G5.

Robert M Wright · February 26th, 2006, 08:51 PM

Could you give me the skinny on what DVDStudioPro 4 does? Does it generate files (and structure) that will be compatible with the new drives from Toshiba? I don't know much more about HD-DVD than the raw capacity of the disks.

Barlow Elton · February 27th, 2006, 12:20 AM

I've just made simple HD-DVD's onto 4.7GB DVD-R media. H.264 encoding with basic menu structure, much the same as SD DVD. The new version of the program is supposed to be compliant with the final shipping spec of HD DVD...but we won't know if it's absolutely standards compliant until they ship the durn things.

Robert M Wright · February 27th, 2006, 12:28 AM

Thanks Barlow! Are you familiar with the IO-DATA LinkPlayer2?

Barlow Elton · February 27th, 2006, 10:22 AM

Yes, somewhat familiar. I know it plays WMV and MPEG2...is it a good temporary solution?

Zack Birlew · February 27th, 2006, 10:50 AM

I've played with the Panasonic DVX100A and B, the XL2, JVC HD100U, and XLH1. All of them do great 24p, especially the HD100U and DVX. In all honesty, I wouldn't like to use the XL2 or XLH1 because the 24p doesn't show up correctly while recording, or at least on default settings it doesn't. The strobiness was too apparent when I was looking through the viewfinder so I don't know if that was showing up on tape or not. The guy at the store said that footage shows up better when recorded to tape and that the viewfinder was just giving a rough low-res estimate. Well, that's all good and everything but the HD100U and DVX show me a WYSIWYG display in both viewfinder and LCD. Less stress and worry is always good with me. But this shouldn't discredit the camera at all, this is just my personal observation and opinion.

As far as the actual footage looks, it looks really good. I don't know what Canon is doing in 24F but they did something right. The motion is just as good as 24p stuff from the DVX and HD100U. I haven't seen too much XL2 stuff though but I'd imagine it's the same deal.

David Saraceno · February 27th, 2006, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

SD progressive 16x9 DVD's from 24F material are spectacular, as you would expect. HD-DVD progressive DVD's from 24F are spectacular too. I've made a few in DVDStudioPro 4 and been blown away. Too bad the players aren't here yet, but it works great with my G5.

I take it you captured HDV 24P in FCP to AIC? The reason I ask is that there is no preset to that effect.

There is only HDV 720P 30.

Then did you output a raw file, and conform it in Cinema Tools?

Or could you very briefly detail from acquisition in FCP to asset creation in DVD SP4?

Thank you

Barlow Elton · February 27th, 2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Saraceno

I take it you captured HDV 24P in FCP to AIC? The reason I ask is that there is no preset to that effect.

There is only HDV 720P 30.

Then did you output a raw file, and conform it in Cinema Tools?

Or could you very briefly detail from acquisition in FCP to asset creation in DVD SP4?

Thank you

I went the DVCPRO HD route.

--Capture SDI out from H1 HDV tape playback into Kona/FCP DVCPRO HD 1080i preset
--Conformed footage to 24p in Cinema Tools
--Edited in 24p
--Output final QT in DVCPRO HD 23.98 1080p
--Converted to 720p w/HD DVD Compressor preset (h.264 for HD DVD) at 10.3 mbps 720/59.94--You can go with higher bit rates or to 1080i w/MPEG 2 fwiw
--Burned to HD DVD spec with an extremely basic menu. Just a picture and play button.

Worked fine. I'm going to try 1080i at some point (no 1080p encoding in HD-DVD spec that I'm aware of), but my HD projector is 720p so that's what I encoded for and played back through. I've already seen the 1080p quality and it's great, so if and when I need to go with 1080 resolution it won't be an issue with H1 material.

David Saraceno · February 27th, 2006, 05:35 PM

Sorry to be so obtuse: You said:

I went the DVCPRO HD route.

--Capture SDI out from H1 HDV tape playback into Kona/FCP DVCPRO HD 1080i preset

This means you shoot 24F, go SDI to a Kona LH to DVCPRO HD 1080i preset in FCP.

Then do you take the raw clips and conformed footage to 24p in Cinema Tools.

Aren't the raw files interlaced?

Then reimport to what sequence setting? 24P 720 DVCPRoHD?

And how do you capture your audio?

Barlow Elton · February 27th, 2006, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Saraceno

Sorry to be so obtuse: You said:

I went the DVCPRO HD route.

--Capture SDI out from H1 HDV tape playback into Kona/FCP DVCPRO HD 1080i preset

This means you shoot 24F, go SDI to a Kona LH to DVCPRO HD 1080i preset in FCP.

Then do you take the raw clips and conformed footage to 24p in Cinema Tools.

Aren't the raw files interlaced?

Yes, the original DV100 1080i (I prefer calling it that) captured from the SDI output of the camera is interlaced, but when you perform inverse telecine in Cinema Tools, it gives you a true 23.98 extraction of the 24F progressive footage without recompression. You can tell just by stepping though the conformed footage frame by frame...no pulldown interlace frames. I've put up a few clips in the past that were extracted this way. Additionally, it's saved as a separtate QT file.

Quote:

Then reimport to what sequence setting? 24P 720 DVCPRoHD?

And how do you capture your audio?

No reimporting of anything...just compressing 1080p to 720p...it's an easy conversion.

Audio was captured analog out of the camera into XLR connectors on the Kona LH card.

John Benton · February 28th, 2006, 12:14 AM

Barlow.
playing with the H1 -
Capture footage to FCP 1080i and when I try to inverse telecine in Cinema Tools, I get this:
"Error : This file has temporal compression"

I know your are not tech support, but, what you are doing is so Nice !

Thanks,
J

Barlow Elton · February 28th, 2006, 12:43 AM

Hey John,

Did you finally get an H1 or still evaluating?

Umm...that error message...never ran into that one. If you captured DVCPRO HD 1080i properly, it should take a stab at the footage and then export the clip, usually by default to the desktop. Lots of times it misses the cadence (clip still has interlace artifacts) and you have to try a different combination of parameters. There's a bit of trial and error to it, for sure.

Just export a very short clip of your stuff. 5 to 10 sec at most in a "make movie self-contained" export. Bring the clip into Cinema Tools and render with the different "F1, F2..AA, BB, CC, DD" etc. I've usually had luck with CC or DD cadence detection.

John Benton · February 28th, 2006, 08:20 AM

Ha Ha !
Yes - after much deliberating, as you know because you were so instrumental in my decision making process, I jumped and bought the Beast !

I LOVE IT - got it late yesterday, so I have barely had time to play with it and decide if it was truly the camera for me. I don't think there is a question anymore. I am still slightly in shock (and debt). The footage is insane and there is a lot to learn.

I captured directly to Powerbook, firewire, 1080i 60 & just took the Captured quicktime. I just glanced att your earlier post and tried it fast.
Should I convert to DVCpro? (Isn't that just applying another codec and loosing info?)
Seems like converting from 1080 > 24p this way gonna be better footage than finegling 24f into final cut through the varios methods that have been posted.

Anyway, Barlow I have to thank you! You are really one of the main forces that let me see the truth of this camera in these last few months and I appreciate it greatly.
J

Thomas Smet · February 28th, 2006, 08:56 AM

Back to the topic on hand here, how does the vertical chroma compare between the two cameras in 24f/24p mode?

We now know the HVX200 starts with only 540 vertical pixels that are pixel shifted to get HD resolutions. In theory the H1 also starts off it's 24f mode by only using one field of data worth 540 vertical pixels. I am curious if perhaps the Canon is doing the same thing as the HVX200 it it's 24f mode to go from 540 to 1080 pixels. If that is the case even with SDI there really isn't a true 4:2:2 going on since pixel shift usually helps luma and not chroma.

February 26th, 2006, 05:33 PM	#1
David Saraceno Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inland Northwest Posts: 490	How Does 24F Compare With 24P Panny? For those of you who have seen both, what is your objective assessment? And further, when encode to SD progressive DVD on a Mac, what are we looking at? thanks

February 27th, 2006, 10:50 AM	#7
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	I've played with the Panasonic DVX100A and B, the XL2, JVC HD100U, and XLH1. All of them do great 24p, especially the HD100U and DVX. In all honesty, I wouldn't like to use the XL2 or XLH1 because the 24p doesn't show up correctly while recording, or at least on default settings it doesn't. The strobiness was too apparent when I was looking through the viewfinder so I don't know if that was showing up on tape or not. The guy at the store said that footage shows up better when recorded to tape and that the viewfinder was just giving a rough low-res estimate. Well, that's all good and everything but the HD100U and DVX show me a WYSIWYG display in both viewfinder and LCD. Less stress and worry is always good with me. But this shouldn't discredit the camera at all, this is just my personal observation and opinion. As far as the actual footage looks, it looks really good. I don't know what Canon is doing in 24F but they did something right. The motion is just as good as 24p stuff from the DVX and HD100U. I haven't seen too much XL2 stuff though but I'd imagine it's the same deal. __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

February 26th, 2006, 08:40 PM	#2
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	As far as motion rendition? Too close to care one way or another. 24F is virtual 24p, but I think the H1 has far more resolution when all's said and done. Of course, that isn't everything...but it's a nice start! SD progressive 16x9 DVD's from 24F material are spectacular, as you would expect. HD-DVD progressive DVD's from 24F are spectacular too. I've made a few in DVDStudioPro 4 and been blown away. Too bad the players aren't here yet, but it works great with my G5.

February 26th, 2006, 08:51 PM	#3
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	Could you give me the skinny on what DVDStudioPro 4 does? Does it generate files (and structure) that will be compatible with the new drives from Toshiba? I don't know much more about HD-DVD than the raw capacity of the disks.

February 27th, 2006, 12:20 AM	#4
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	I've just made simple HD-DVD's onto 4.7GB DVD-R media. H.264 encoding with basic menu structure, much the same as SD DVD. The new version of the program is supposed to be compliant with the final shipping spec of HD DVD...but we won't know if it's absolutely standards compliant until they ship the durn things.

February 27th, 2006, 12:28 AM	#5
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	Thanks Barlow! Are you familiar with the IO-DATA LinkPlayer2?

February 27th, 2006, 10:22 AM	#6
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Yes, somewhat familiar. I know it plays WMV and MPEG2...is it a good temporary solution?

February 27th, 2006, 05:35 PM	#10
David Saraceno Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inland Northwest Posts: 490	Sorry to be so obtuse: You said: I went the DVCPRO HD route. --Capture SDI out from H1 HDV tape playback into Kona/FCP DVCPRO HD 1080i preset This means you shoot 24F, go SDI to a Kona LH to DVCPRO HD 1080i preset in FCP. Then do you take the raw clips and conformed footage to 24p in Cinema Tools. Aren't the raw files interlaced? Then reimport to what sequence setting? 24P 720 DVCPRoHD? And how do you capture your audio?

February 28th, 2006, 12:14 AM	#12
John Benton Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 658	Barlow. playing with the H1 - Capture footage to FCP 1080i and when I try to inverse telecine in Cinema Tools, I get this: "Error : This file has temporal compression" I know your are not tech support, but, what you are doing is so Nice ! Thanks, J

February 28th, 2006, 12:43 AM	#13
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Hey John, Did you finally get an H1 or still evaluating? Umm...that error message...never ran into that one. If you captured DVCPRO HD 1080i properly, it should take a stab at the footage and then export the clip, usually by default to the desktop. Lots of times it misses the cadence (clip still has interlace artifacts) and you have to try a different combination of parameters. There's a bit of trial and error to it, for sure. Just export a very short clip of your stuff. 5 to 10 sec at most in a "make movie self-contained" export. Bring the clip into Cinema Tools and render with the different "F1, F2..AA, BB, CC, DD" etc. I've usually had luck with CC or DD cadence detection.

February 28th, 2006, 08:20 AM	#14
John Benton Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 658	Ha Ha ! Yes - after much deliberating, as you know because you were so instrumental in my decision making process, I jumped and bought the Beast ! I LOVE IT - got it late yesterday, so I have barely had time to play with it and decide if it was truly the camera for me. I don't think there is a question anymore. I am still slightly in shock (and debt). The footage is insane and there is a lot to learn. I captured directly to Powerbook, firewire, 1080i 60 & just took the Captured quicktime. I just glanced att your earlier post and tried it fast. Should I convert to DVCpro? (Isn't that just applying another codec and loosing info?) Seems like converting from 1080 > 24p this way gonna be better footage than finegling 24f into final cut through the varios methods that have been posted. Anyway, Barlow I have to thank you! You are really one of the main forces that let me see the truth of this camera in these last few months and I appreciate it greatly. J

February 28th, 2006, 08:56 AM	#15
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Back to the topic on hand here, how does the vertical chroma compare between the two cameras in 24f/24p mode? We now know the HVX200 starts with only 540 vertical pixels that are pixel shifted to get HD resolutions. In theory the H1 also starts off it's 24f mode by only using one field of data worth 540 vertical pixels. I am curious if perhaps the Canon is doing the same thing as the HVX200 it it's 24f mode to go from 540 to 1080 pixels. If that is the case even with SDI there really isn't a true 4:2:2 going on since pixel shift usually helps luma and not chroma.