Color is the Power of... at DVinfo.net

John Benton · February 21st, 2006, 10:05 PM

ok.
I have been an avid HVX enthusiast & eager awaiter.
The color is quite stunning, No?
(maybe it's the color space)
however,

I tested out an HVX last week at a store here and didn't love the type of noise. I had, rather hopefully, dismissed it in some samples from the web as compression...

So I go in and stream some footage into my powerbook...it loved it and I was amazed by the footage.
However, it is the depth and richness of the colors that I crave; and I wonder if any of you have comments and suggestions for tweaking this.
There was a push out knob on the side that turned the image awful Blue or Orange - but otherwise the color was ...kinda flat.
Now I know that there are EXTENSIVE menus on the Canon and you can tweak your eyebrows...
but I gueass I 'm asking about the robustness.
Though I am also hoping to find "that little "K" setting on the white balance dial. " that Steve Rosen talked about awhile ago...
So any of your Presonal Favorite settings (to remedy things like this & more) would be appreciated:
I plan on going back and doing more extensive H1 testing

The Canon is more money than I wished to spend (though with the P2's the HVX is close)
but it simply feels like a more solid investment.
Scalability, value and a longer shelf life...

I'm trying to gain enough critical mass to pull out the Visa,
(though I will, no doubt, be testing the HVX a lot more too...)

Thanks for your help
J

Chris Hurd · February 21st, 2006, 11:19 PM

John I must admit I'm not quite sure what you are asking.

Yes there is a Degrees Kelvin setting on the White Balance knob. You can dial in a specific color temperature, anything from 2,800 to 12,000 deg. K in 100 degree increments. It's very handy for tweaking a specific WB setting.

John Benton · February 22nd, 2006, 06:02 AM

Ha !
Thanks Chris -
I guess my post is a general ramble trying to illicit support to for a devastating shift in my world view (From the HVX to the XL-H1) that occurred yesterday when I streamed footage into my powerbook at B&H.

The only thing that left me flat was the Color in the Canon
and I want to know How people feel about this,
and specifically, how they tweak it to arrive at a richness
(that is more than just saturation)

Also, I guess I'm at what is know as the tipping point (and I'm sure many people here can sympathize) and wanted to share that and garner a little support,
Thanks,
J

Nick Hiltgen · February 22nd, 2006, 11:35 AM

If someone in the L.A. area has a HVX I would love to borrow it for an hour so I can create a scene file for the canon that matches teh HVX (or at least try to) so we can put an end to this "color richness" of the panasonic over the canon debate once and for all.

Robert Sanders · February 22nd, 2006, 02:54 PM

With my experiences with the XL2 I found that a simple 15% saturation boost in post (via color correction) really made the footage pop. I think Canon shoots at a more baseline for color and exposure allow the greatest degree of latitude in post. Just my .02 cents.

John Benton · February 22nd, 2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Hiltgen

If someone in the L.A. area has a HVX I would love to borrow it for an hour so I can create a scene file for the canon that matches teh HVX (or at least try to) so we can put an end to this "color richness" of the panasonic over the canon debate once and for all.

Yes, I know, I know,
it is a terrible debate - and that is a very generous offer of you Nick.
Please do it ! I am falling for this camera and
since I am streaming both (will also be creating Tape back up with Canon) ,
It is a 3k decision for me....
There are many other factors to the equation, but this debate is pertanent.

Most all of the Canon footage I have seen on the web is not color corrected...Though it is stunning.

Thanks Robert - I have heard similar...
but the 15% saturation boost in FCP, I believe, slightly degrades the image no?
Though the Canon has a lot to work with to begin with and this might be imperceptable.
Anyway, yes, lets resolve these color issues once and for all !
Chime in,
Thanks

Stephen L. Noe · February 22nd, 2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Benton

Yes, I know, I know,
it is a terrible debate - and that is a very generous offer of you Nick.
Please do it ! I am falling for this camera and
since I am streaming both (will also be creating Tape back up with Canon) ,
It is a 3k decision for me....
There are many other factors to the equation, but this debate is pertanent.

Most all of the Canon footage I have seen on the web is not color corrected...Though it is stunning.

Thanks Robert - I have heard similar...
but the 15% saturation boost in FCP, I believe, slightly degrades the image no?
Though the Canon has a lot to work with to begin with and this might be imperceptable.
Anyway, yes, lets resolve these color issues once and for all !
Chime in,
Thanks

Have you looked at the HD-100? Might as well since you're right there. You can download a Cinegama match for the HD-100 and a "True Color" setting for the HD-100 and have a look as well. If interested...

Pete Bauer · February 22nd, 2006, 08:37 PM

I think a professional shooter like Nick will agree -- I'm sure he will tell us if he doesn't...but...

Personally, I think out-of-the-box color rendition isn't really a factor to worry about when choosing between these cameras. The color can so easily be tweaked in so many ways, all the way from luma-only to garish party-color ultra chroma. With most of the new cameras, if you can think of a "look," you can set it to give that look to you.

That ability to customize image parameters is important, and all the manufacturers obviously recognize that by making the cameras above mass-market 1 chippers pretty darn customizable. In principle, it is better to at least get close to the intended look in-camera, as in most cameras that kind of processing is done at higher bit depth before output to 8-bit color. You may then only have to slightly tweak the look in the NLE, rather than make huge changes at 8-bit, which could result in banding and so forth.

John, that doesn't help you decide which camera to buy. But since I think that worrying about out-of-the-box color is not a very important factor, I'm hoping you'll focus on other factors like workflow, how a camera feels in your hands, etc.

John Benton · February 22nd, 2006, 09:53 PM

Indeed, Pete,
It is the fact that the Canon does feel good !
I was convinced of the smaller size and the P2
(I hate digitizing - though there are great things about seeing your footage in that light)
-but streaming the H1 into my powerbook was a beautiful thing and I will be doing a lot of this
-(And I want the ability to do documentry like workflow, that having tape allows)
-I can see no immediate ability to be able to use the SDI out for RAW ($$), but I would love to have that option.
- a super nice thing is I can ride my steadicam rig without worry of offloading cards (although regarding a moving tapeless workflow, that can be adressed with a Firestore in both the HVX & H1).

Thanks,
J

"I wanna know, I wanna know, I wanna know..." BobMarley

February 21st, 2006, 10:05 PM	#1
John Benton Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 658	Color is the Power of... ok. I have been an avid HVX enthusiast & eager awaiter. The color is quite stunning, No? (maybe it's the color space) however, I tested out an HVX last week at a store here and didn't love the type of noise. I had, rather hopefully, dismissed it in some samples from the web as compression... So I go in and stream some footage into my powerbook...it loved it and I was amazed by the footage. However, it is the depth and richness of the colors that I crave; and I wonder if any of you have comments and suggestions for tweaking this. There was a push out knob on the side that turned the image awful Blue or Orange - but otherwise the color was ...kinda flat. Now I know that there are EXTENSIVE menus on the Canon and you can tweak your eyebrows... but I gueass I 'm asking about the robustness. Though I am also hoping to find "that little "K" setting on the white balance dial. " that Steve Rosen talked about awhile ago... So any of your Presonal Favorite settings (to remedy things like this & more) would be appreciated: I plan on going back and doing more extensive H1 testing The Canon is more money than I wished to spend (though with the P2's the HVX is close) but it simply feels like a more solid investment. Scalability, value and a longer shelf life... I'm trying to gain enough critical mass to pull out the Visa, (though I will, no doubt, be testing the HVX a lot more too...) Thanks for your help J

February 21st, 2006, 11:19 PM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	John I must admit I'm not quite sure what you are asking. Yes there is a Degrees Kelvin setting on the White Balance knob. You can dial in a specific color temperature, anything from 2,800 to 12,000 deg. K in 100 degree increments. It's very handy for tweaking a specific WB setting. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 22nd, 2006, 11:35 AM	#4
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	If someone in the L.A. area has a HVX I would love to borrow it for an hour so I can create a scene file for the canon that matches teh HVX (or at least try to) so we can put an end to this "color richness" of the panasonic over the canon debate once and for all. __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...

February 22nd, 2006, 02:54 PM	#5
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	With my experiences with the XL2 I found that a simple 15% saturation boost in post (via color correction) really made the footage pop. I think Canon shoots at a more baseline for color and exposure allow the greatest degree of latitude in post. Just my .02 cents. __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

February 22nd, 2006, 08:37 PM	#8
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	I think a professional shooter like Nick will agree -- I'm sure he will tell us if he doesn't...but... Personally, I think out-of-the-box color rendition isn't really a factor to worry about when choosing between these cameras. The color can so easily be tweaked in so many ways, all the way from luma-only to garish party-color ultra chroma. With most of the new cameras, if you can think of a "look," you can set it to give that look to you. That ability to customize image parameters is important, and all the manufacturers obviously recognize that by making the cameras above mass-market 1 chippers pretty darn customizable. In principle, it is better to at least get close to the intended look in-camera, as in most cameras that kind of processing is done at higher bit depth before output to 8-bit color. You may then only have to slightly tweak the look in the NLE, rather than make huge changes at 8-bit, which could result in banding and so forth. John, that doesn't help you decide which camera to buy. But since I think that worrying about out-of-the-box color is not a very important factor, I'm hoping you'll focus on other factors like workflow, how a camera feels in your hands, etc. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

February 22nd, 2006, 06:02 AM	#3
John Benton Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 658	Ha ! Thanks Chris - I guess my post is a general ramble trying to illicit support to for a devastating shift in my world view (From the HVX to the XL-H1) that occurred yesterday when I streamed footage into my powerbook at B&H. The only thing that left me flat was the Color in the Canon and I want to know How people feel about this, and specifically, how they tweak it to arrive at a richness (that is more than just saturation) Also, I guess I'm at what is know as the tipping point (and I'm sure many people here can sympathize) and wanted to share that and garner a little support, Thanks, J

February 22nd, 2006, 09:53 PM	#9
John Benton Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 658	Indeed, Pete, It is the fact that the Canon does feel good ! I was convinced of the smaller size and the P2 (I hate digitizing - though there are great things about seeing your footage in that light) -but streaming the H1 into my powerbook was a beautiful thing and I will be doing a lot of this -(And I want the ability to do documentry like workflow, that having tape allows) -I can see no immediate ability to be able to use the SDI out for RAW ($$), but I would love to have that option. - a super nice thing is I can ride my steadicam rig without worry of offloading cards (although regarding a moving tapeless workflow, that can be adressed with a Firestore in both the HVX & H1). Thanks, J "I wanna know, I wanna know, I wanna know..." BobMarley