Purple and green borders are killing me!!!

Michael Karrer · January 31st, 2006, 07:15 AM

The story goes on ...

The technician from teletek called me - he was pretty friendly apologized for the previous phone call where this secretary or whatever told me that i cant talk to a technician - made sure thath i send him the material and promised that he will repair the cam quickly!

so far so good... - an hour later - got a call from teletek:

this secretary is on the line very upset that canon called and made a complaint about her that she had sad that teletek would not repair the cam...

Come on i never sad that too anyone at canon - i said that i dont belive they are able to repair it and i would like to get another unit quickly - BUT i sad to canon that teletek did not allow me to speek with the technician who will repair my cam - and this is exatly what this secretary told me...

Where on earth am I? I thought i live in the heard of europe but in terms of hd and support it feels more like somewhere near the pole caps.

Hey Jack: THANKS A LOT! I will use this chart to test the cam - im posting the pictures here! - I think i will send the cam with dpd to vienna tomorrow and i am in london this weekend so no chance of meeting now , but i think a week after there should be a good chance (will send you a mail)

I will ask teletek if they can enable me the ntsc modes too - curios how much they will charge for that

Peter Ferling · January 31st, 2006, 10:19 AM

Next time I'd provide a link to forums like this and let the corporation decide how they should treat their customers in the future. The influence of the internet is powerful tool, but only if wielded properly.

I'd love to see the resultant images when you get that camera back from the shop.

I hope all goes well.

Michael Karrer · February 12th, 2006, 04:10 AM

I got a new cam from canon! - Hurray i thought - but when the cam came it was pretty dirty - A new? cam dirty? I thought it was used so i wrote exactly that to teletek. The answer was thath they got it directly from canon so it has to be new... - but still this dirt is strange - What do you think?

So i tested the new cam - every setting factory default except the color gain setting pushed to the max to see any ca as good as possible. - AND THERE THEY ARE : PURPLE AND GREEN MONSTERS - Ok so is it just me or is this normal? Here is a clip - compressed with divx but looks VERY! much like the original! (It feels a bit softer than the original but is still close enough to judge the ca!) PLEASE HELP: IS THIS NORMAL?!?!

The Link to the File:
http://www.actimation.com/fileadmin/newxlh1.avi

DESPERATION is spreading in my mind...

Pete Bauer · February 12th, 2006, 10:39 AM

Michael, check the serial number to see if it is the same one you sent back. Also, if the serial is a lower number than the first one, you can assume that something suspicious has happened since H1's wouldn't be sitting on the shelf during the first month of shipping.

Sorry, the whopping 400MB file won't play on my everyday computer for some reason; will try later on my editing box.

Michael Karrer · February 12th, 2006, 02:28 PM

Thanks Pete for the quick answer! So - no its a new modell and a new lens both serial numbers are much higher... so i guess its a newer one.

If anybody would look at the file - would be sooo great - probably this amount of ca is normal - i mean color gain is set to max +9 so you can see ca stronger but still for my taste its a lot! - The file is mpg4 so you will need divx or xvid to play it back.

Thanks for any suggestions and opinions!

Pete Tomov · February 12th, 2006, 02:46 PM

Looks normal only if the iris is wide open.If it is try satting it between 4 - 9 and it should be a lot better.

Bill Taka · February 12th, 2006, 03:36 PM

Michael,

Just curious, why did you max out the color preset. According to your original post you filmed right out of the box, assuming the default settings. How does it look with the default presents and preferably the same subject and lighting. Is the CA still there?

Jack Foley · February 12th, 2006, 03:44 PM

Michael,

I guess the CA can be considered "normal". I had a XL H1 from Canon Professional Support over the weekend and also experienced some CA.

http://fabforce.net/various/CA_left.png
http://fabforce.net/various/CA_right.png

It is not too bad in normal footage, but still noticeable.

Jack

Michael Karrer · February 13th, 2006, 12:47 AM

Thanks a lot for the replys. - I turned up the gain because the ca is more obvious then. - I dont have a huge problem with normal footage but if i have to color grade it and need a look with very saturated colours then it starts to get annoying. Sure with very very carefull color grading you can work around but thats a lot of work...

I have too take the file offline - sorry but my bandwith is limited too.

David Mills · February 18th, 2006, 06:55 PM

Have just got my PAL canon xl H1 and am experiencing very similar purple/green borders to Michael was experiencing.

Anyone else got this/or found a way to seriously reduce this?

Many thanks in advance.

Alister Chapman · February 19th, 2006, 02:54 PM

It appears that almost all HD cameras/lenses exhibit some CA. High Definition magazine ran some tests on a range of broadcast quality HD lenses from Canon and Fujinon that cost between $30,000 and $60,000 and they all produced noticable amounts of CA. The magazine article concluded that the manufacturers are usure as to whether the CA is caused by the lens or the camera optical block or a combination of both. Ther is a frame grab from one of the above lenses here:

http://www.definitionmagazine.com/fringing/

Given that the H1 plus lens cost a mere fraction of any of the lenses tested in the above feature I really wouldn't get too hung up about it. Much of it is down to the fact that the H1 is the first low cost HD camcorder with the resolution to actually show up the CA. Take a close look at the Z1, HC1, HD100 or HVX200 and they all exhibit CA.

Barlow Elton · February 19th, 2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Karrer

And there they are - HUGE magenta and green borders between black and white surfaces (black frame of my monitor to white wall in the background - black chair to white wall...)

I've seen this too, but not so terribly obvious. I've had it happen to me at full-wide and telephoto with some CA, probably pumped up because I like to shoot Cinegamma 2 with +2 color gain.

I'm going to contact Canon about this. It's got to be rectified. Whether it's the lens or a problem with the prisms, it's got to be fixed.

I LOVE this camera, but it's something that's there and has to be addressed. I am going to post some shots I have where this is occurring. I'm also going to shoot more to see if it's a temporary or constant aberration.

Canon, there will be a storm of high-decibel complaints if this isn't addressed or acknowledged soon.

This should be approached in the same manner (expedient fix) that Canon employed with the old vertical lines issue in the original XL1.

You have to consider that if this is a permanent problem it limits your ability to control saturation...specifically to pump the colors. Your client may ask you to do this while monitoring, and be very unhappy with the results if given a scene with subjects that have very high contrasting edges.

I saw it in my trampoline SDI footage and it's problematic, for sure.

A. J. deLange · February 19th, 2006, 05:07 PM

If it can't be fixed in a $50,000 lens it is unlikely that it can be fixed in a $4000 one. There are laws of physics that have to be dealt with here. In a couple of quickie experiments I found the CA to be less than a pixel at the edges of the frame. This is actually quite good. Images from this camera are not intended to be viewed close up enough that you can see the pixels. It's for movies and TV, not the cover of National Geographic.

Barlow Elton · February 19th, 2006, 05:12 PM

Well, the effect I saw was pretty strong so it has me a little worried, but not monumentally.

Point taken, but I'm still concerned. What I've seen almost looked like a problem with the prism block, but I certainly can't say with even a whiff of expertise. The girls jumping on the trampoline have a bit of a "halo" of green and purple when you inspect it closely. I did shoot with a + 2 color gain and Cinegamma 2, so that might have contributed, plus I was fully wide.

Are we dealing with a serious problem or a mild CA issue?

David Mills · February 19th, 2006, 05:46 PM

I guess my big worry is I am shooting a feature on Thursday with this camera. I love the image we are getting but I want to know will this 'CA' destroy the saleabitiy of the project. I have posted some grabs from FCP . We had to shoot 50i to get it on to the computer for the moment but a KONA is coming. Barlow did your fringing happen in 24f as well.I can't get that onto my computer to look yet. I only have a 9 inch 400 lines monitor right now. HDlink card for 24 inch dell is still on the way. As we speak I am planning to get up and drive the 4 hours to selling company to do an eyeball test with their demo gear.

Images posted at:
http://homepage.mac.com/thefeature/FileSharing2.html

January 31st, 2006, 07:15 AM	#31
Michael Karrer Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Gleisdorf Austria Posts: 29	The story goes on ... The technician from teletek called me - he was pretty friendly apologized for the previous phone call where this secretary or whatever told me that i cant talk to a technician - made sure thath i send him the material and promised that he will repair the cam quickly! so far so good... - an hour later - got a call from teletek: this secretary is on the line very upset that canon called and made a complaint about her that she had sad that teletek would not repair the cam... Come on i never sad that too anyone at canon - i said that i dont belive they are able to repair it and i would like to get another unit quickly - BUT i sad to canon that teletek did not allow me to speek with the technician who will repair my cam - and this is exatly what this secretary told me... Where on earth am I? I thought i live in the heard of europe but in terms of hd and support it feels more like somewhere near the pole caps. Hey Jack: THANKS A LOT! I will use this chart to test the cam - im posting the pictures here! - I think i will send the cam with dpd to vienna tomorrow and i am in london this weekend so no chance of meeting now , but i think a week after there should be a good chance (will send you a mail) I will ask teletek if they can enable me the ntsc modes too - curios how much they will charge for that Last edited by Michael Karrer; January 31st, 2006 at 08:11 AM.

February 12th, 2006, 04:10 AM	#33
Michael Karrer Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Gleisdorf Austria Posts: 29	I got a new cam... I got a new cam from canon! - Hurray i thought - but when the cam came it was pretty dirty - A new? cam dirty? I thought it was used so i wrote exactly that to teletek. The answer was thath they got it directly from canon so it has to be new... - but still this dirt is strange - What do you think? So i tested the new cam - every setting factory default except the color gain setting pushed to the max to see any ca as good as possible. - AND THERE THEY ARE : PURPLE AND GREEN MONSTERS - Ok so is it just me or is this normal? Here is a clip - compressed with divx but looks VERY! much like the original! (It feels a bit softer than the original but is still close enough to judge the ca!) PLEASE HELP: IS THIS NORMAL?!?! The Link to the File: http://www.actimation.com/fileadmin/newxlh1.avi DESPERATION is spreading in my mind...

February 12th, 2006, 10:39 AM	#34
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Michael, check the serial number to see if it is the same one you sent back. Also, if the serial is a lower number than the first one, you can assume that something suspicious has happened since H1's wouldn't be sitting on the shelf during the first month of shipping. Sorry, the whopping 400MB file won't play on my everyday computer for some reason; will try later on my editing box. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

February 18th, 2006, 06:55 PM	#40
David Mills New Boot Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Stockton on Tees,UK Posts: 21	Purple and green borders are killing me Have just got my PAL canon xl H1 and am experiencing very similar purple/green borders to Michael was experiencing. Anyone else got this/or found a way to seriously reduce this? Many thanks in advance.

February 19th, 2006, 02:54 PM	#41
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	It appears that almost all HD cameras/lenses exhibit some CA. High Definition magazine ran some tests on a range of broadcast quality HD lenses from Canon and Fujinon that cost between $30,000 and $60,000 and they all produced noticable amounts of CA. The magazine article concluded that the manufacturers are usure as to whether the CA is caused by the lens or the camera optical block or a combination of both. Ther is a frame grab from one of the above lenses here: http://www.definitionmagazine.com/fringing/ Given that the H1 plus lens cost a mere fraction of any of the lenses tested in the above feature I really wouldn't get too hung up about it. Much of it is down to the fact that the H1 is the first low cost HD camcorder with the resolution to actually show up the CA. Take a close look at the Z1, HC1, HD100 or HVX200 and they all exhibit CA. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

January 31st, 2006, 10:19 AM	#32
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	Next time I'd provide a link to forums like this and let the corporation decide how they should treat their customers in the future. The influence of the internet is powerful tool, but only if wielded properly. I'd love to see the resultant images when you get that camera back from the shop. I hope all goes well.

February 12th, 2006, 02:28 PM	#35
Michael Karrer Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Gleisdorf Austria Posts: 29	Thanks Pete for the quick answer! So - no its a new modell and a new lens both serial numbers are much higher... so i guess its a newer one. If anybody would look at the file - would be sooo great - probably this amount of ca is normal - i mean color gain is set to max +9 so you can see ca stronger but still for my taste its a lot! - The file is mpg4 so you will need divx or xvid to play it back. Thanks for any suggestions and opinions!

February 12th, 2006, 02:46 PM	#36
Pete Tomov Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 106	Looks normal only if the iris is wide open.If it is try satting it between 4 - 9 and it should be a lot better.

February 12th, 2006, 03:36 PM	#37
Bill Taka Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 82	Michael, Just curious, why did you max out the color preset. According to your original post you filmed right out of the box, assuming the default settings. How does it look with the default presents and preferably the same subject and lighting. Is the CA still there?

February 12th, 2006, 03:44 PM	#38
Jack Foley Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 42	Michael, I guess the CA can be considered "normal". I had a XL H1 from Canon Professional Support over the weekend and also experienced some CA. http://fabforce.net/various/CA_left.png http://fabforce.net/various/CA_right.png It is not too bad in normal footage, but still noticeable. Jack

February 13th, 2006, 12:47 AM	#39
Michael Karrer Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Gleisdorf Austria Posts: 29	Thanks a lot for the replys. - I turned up the gain because the ca is more obvious then. - I dont have a huge problem with normal footage but if i have to color grade it and need a look with very saturated colours then it starts to get annoying. Sure with very very carefull color grading you can work around but thats a lot of work... I have too take the file offline - sorry but my bandwith is limited too.

February 19th, 2006, 05:07 PM	#43
A. J. deLange Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: McLean, VA United States Posts: 749	If it can't be fixed in a $50,000 lens it is unlikely that it can be fixed in a $4000 one. There are laws of physics that have to be dealt with here. In a couple of quickie experiments I found the CA to be less than a pixel at the edges of the frame. This is actually quite good. Images from this camera are not intended to be viewed close up enough that you can see the pixels. It's for movies and TV, not the cover of National Geographic.

February 19th, 2006, 05:12 PM	#44
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Well, the effect I saw was pretty strong so it has me a little worried, but not monumentally. Point taken, but I'm still concerned. What I've seen almost looked like a problem with the prism block, but I certainly can't say with even a whiff of expertise. The girls jumping on the trampoline have a bit of a "halo" of green and purple when you inspect it closely. I did shoot with a + 2 color gain and Cinegamma 2, so that might have contributed, plus I was fully wide. Are we dealing with a serious problem or a mild CA issue?

February 19th, 2006, 05:46 PM	#45
David Mills New Boot Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Stockton on Tees,UK Posts: 21	Purple and green borders are killing me I guess my big worry is I am shooting a feature on Thursday with this camera. I love the image we are getting but I want to know will this 'CA' destroy the saleabitiy of the project. I have posted some grabs from FCP . We had to shoot 50i to get it on to the computer for the moment but a KONA is coming. Barlow did your fringing happen in 24f as well.I can't get that onto my computer to look yet. I only have a 9 inch 400 lines monitor right now. HDlink card for 24 inch dell is still on the way. As we speak I am planning to get up and drive the 4 hours to selling company to do an eyeball test with their demo gear. Images posted at: http://homepage.mac.com/thefeature/FileSharing2.html