Purple and green borders are killing me!!!

A. J. deLange · January 28th, 2006, 09:27 AM

If it's on one side of the picture only or prefferentially it is not chromatic aberration. CA manifests itself by red or blue fringing on the outside or inside (depending on whether the lens is over or undercorrected) of a circle centered on the center of the image. The simplest way to detect CA is to transfer the image to a program like photoshop and to toggle between the red and blue and green images. If the red or blue image is bigger or smaller than the green i.e. if the picture appears to grow or shrink when you select one of these then you are seing CA. I've measured CA on the H1 and found it to fall on the boudary between low and moderate with the latter meaning that it is detectable on a large blowup of the image.

I don't know what is plaguing Michael's images but I don't think it's CA. It could be "bloom" in which some of the light from a highly exposed pixel splashes over to a pixel in a dark region. I must say that overall I don't think the pictures he posted are as sharp as they should be for an XL-H1. I think checkout by Canon is in order.

Vince Gaffney · January 28th, 2006, 10:07 AM

a problem like this was described to me as possible misalignment of the sensors. i agree with the bring it to canon philosophy.

vince

Jacob Mason · January 28th, 2006, 12:21 PM

I threw this together real quick and updated my post at DVX.
Both show the consistency of this heavy CA anomaly. LINK HERE

Lauri Kettunen · January 28th, 2006, 01:28 PM

I'm in process of capturing about 40 hours of XL2 material from tape to hard disk, and found today the following kind of image (be aware, it's 16:9 but resolution is still 720x576)

www.luontovideo.net/ca-example.tif

Although it's not taken with XL H1, the effect seems to be bit like Michael's example. Especially, the magenta color appears in the footage when the image is not in focus. Still, this is the only footage where I've found such an effect.

Michael Karrer · January 28th, 2006, 04:36 PM

Thanks to all off you!

I will do a lot more testing tomorrow - and i will post all results here on this forum.

I have to say that i really like this cam - if only this magenta will go away... if it was a shift to the blue i would not mind that much but magenta is so obvious in most cases...

I played with this horizontal vertical detail frequenze settings - they seem to help - does anybody know anything about them?

Last question for today: is there a test chart for A3 (not A4) that i can print out?

i know this question was asked elsewhere but if you could give me any link for a good chart or just some chart you want to see...

Thanks!

Ash Greyson · January 29th, 2006, 12:03 AM

Maybe this problem is worse on PAL cameras because I have seen nothing of the sort from either my XL2 or the XLH I have been using.

ash =o)

Michael Karrer · January 29th, 2006, 02:22 PM

I did some more testing the whole day! - I tried to get it as worse as im able to - here is the result:

http://www.actimation.com/fileadmin/xlh1test.jpg

Please look at the different channels!
On the Red channel there is a thick red line around the edge
On the Green channel there is a pure black line around the edge
On the Blue channel it seems ok ... at least nearly or?

Some ideas from what it could be - could it be from the pixel shift and a wron offset or some sort of sharpening or what - seems pretty much a problem of the compression or the processing to me (dont think this is from the lense).

What do you think - any clue? I will bring it to canon tomorrow but like i said before support in Austria is very poor and so i have to nail it down as much as possible!

Vince Gaffney · January 29th, 2006, 04:44 PM

it looks like the green channel is moved to the right. it's allowing the red in nearly full. on the right edge of the right monitor the green is clearly offest into the white back ground. they have to fix that. i tried to replcate it today and couldn't.

good luck

vince

Anthony McFadden · January 29th, 2006, 05:47 PM

i had a similar problem with my xl-2 it turned out to be delamination of one of the sensors, canon have a policy where they replace the camera if there is a fault in the first 14 days (here in australia anyway) looking at the pictures i would bet u have the same problem, i would contact canon asap

regards, anthony mcfadden

Michael Karrer · January 30th, 2006, 03:11 AM

Talked to canon today - there is no replacement for austria and none for germany - there is one in switzerland ... ???

Probably they replace it anyway because i talked to bruxelles today and i think they are smart enough to replace this unit... hopefully

Do you really think this is just an offset of one of the sensores - i personally dont think so because there is a thick black border in the green channel and a thick white border in the red channel - the blue channel seems to be ok!

For me this is some sort of signal processing error where they try to get sharpness or extra resolution for the cam - maybe it is from this pixel shift thing and the integration is set too aggressively - otherwise the whole picture would have a shift and not just a black border appearing next to borders between black and white or dark and light horizontal borders in the red and green channel only... or am i missing something here - strangly this phenomenom is most visible on just one side the right side of the cam... ?

Is someone here who has a lot of knowledge in terms of signal processing or how pixel shift gets realised - is the pixel shift in the canon horizontal or vertical?

Thanks again for any help - btw. canon is watching this forum too :)

Michael Maier · January 30th, 2006, 03:53 AM

Michael, this really sucks, specially that you seem to be the only user of this cam having this problem. The bright side of that is you being the only one around here means this shouldn't be there, so you have good chances of replacing the camera. In the worst case you can still work around it, depending on what you do with the camera. What's the type of production you use the camera for by the way?

Vince Gaffney · January 30th, 2006, 04:30 PM

michael,

i just showed this to an engineer friend of mine with no knowledge of the specific camera and the first thing he said was it was a registration problem. A misalignment that maybe mechanical, maybe electronic.

he says he's 99% sure it is not from CA. He also suggested you get it back to canon if you have not already.

HTH

Vince

Michael Karrer · January 31st, 2006, 02:04 AM

Horrible Support from Canon in Austria...

- No exchange of the cam.
- No technician to talk to
- No direct Support from canon

It sucks - it stinks - and i think i will sell my XL-H1 and go the panasonic route.

I called canon they told me the whole service in Austria for the video cams is done by an external company called teletek - I called teletek and asked if i can speak with an technician there too show him the pictures before he gets the cam AND send him all information we already found out. They told me i have to have an professional number to talk to the technician? "But where do i get such a number from?" i asked - "From canon" they say...
Called canon again - technician i already talked too - he was not reachable...
Got a call from teletek - they told me that even if i had such a number it is not possible to talk to a technician because i would have to pay for that hour by my self even with this professional number because this number is only valid for slr cams...

So if i had bought an slr for about 3000.- EUR I would have "professional" support ... If i buy an 9000 EUR camcorder i have to pay an hour if i want a simple phone call with an technician helping him with soving the problem...

What options do i have?

A) bring it in: If i bring it in i am not sure if they repair it, probably they tell me the cam is working ok - who knows? nobody wants too see the error before.

B) Ask the shop where i bought it for another one - looooong waiting times

C) Sell mine and buy a panasonic

D) Nagging Canon again and again...

Wait ... i get a phone call right now ....

AND There it is! : while im writing this a technician from canon called me and told me that he is sorry for thath but the stupid teletek isnt smart enought to distinguish between professional and the comsummer area - a technician from teletek will call me soon - this kind of support is simply not installed in austria for pro camcorders... yet

Stay tuned...

I keep you informed - Thanks for all the repilies

Lauri Kettunen · January 31st, 2006, 02:49 AM

Michael, you know that in EU the consumer has some rights as well. You've bought an equipment which seems to have some faults, and according to the EU rules you have a right to get it fixed or get the product changed.

I would advice you to contact the Canon headquaters in Austria (call the Austrian salesmanager) or the European headquaters, which I think is in Holland where Canon seems to have all the European store. If nothing else works out, why not contact the Canon headquaters in Japan?

Jack Foley · January 31st, 2006, 04:49 AM

Michael,

your report really, really scares the hell out of me. I am in Austria, Vienna as well, and I am really interested in this cam.

I just got a call from a Canon rep who said I might be able to test a model over the next weekend. And I am quite sure that I will like it.

But I am afraid that when I say, ok, I order one, they will give me a new box and the cam inside that box will have the same problems as your's. (Maybe here in Austria we get the sub-standard goods that did not pass for the US, who knows :P )

If support is really as bad as you describe, I am also concerned about lit/dead pixels that will occur over time. Normally it should be a simple mapping out process (at least on JVC/Pana it is that way) in one of the cam's menus. But if it is impossible to even reach a technical person here and I have to send the cam to Germany or wherever it will take weeks till I will get it back.

Btw, here is a res-chart you can print that should show your problems better than the office shots you made so far.

http://fabforce.net/various/ISO_12233-reschart.pdf

If I get the cam for this weekend I can offer you to meet so we can do comparison shots that will outline that you have a defective model and get a new one.

I really hope this works out for you.
Jack

p.s.: It costs 600 Euros to enable NTSC in the PAL model. Once enabled, one can switch between 50i / 60i / 24F / 25F / 30F.

January 29th, 2006, 02:22 PM	#22
Michael Karrer Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Gleisdorf Austria Posts: 29	Need A Ccd Freak I did some more testing the whole day! - I tried to get it as worse as im able to - here is the result: http://www.actimation.com/fileadmin/xlh1test.jpg Please look at the different channels! On the Red channel there is a thick red line around the edge On the Green channel there is a pure black line around the edge On the Blue channel it seems ok ... at least nearly or? Some ideas from what it could be - could it be from the pixel shift and a wron offset or some sort of sharpening or what - seems pretty much a problem of the compression or the processing to me (dont think this is from the lense). What do you think - any clue? I will bring it to canon tomorrow but like i said before support in Austria is very poor and so i have to nail it down as much as possible!

January 30th, 2006, 03:11 AM	#25
Michael Karrer Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Gleisdorf Austria Posts: 29	I dont think its from shifted sensores Talked to canon today - there is no replacement for austria and none for germany - there is one in switzerland ... ??? Probably they replace it anyway because i talked to bruxelles today and i think they are smart enough to replace this unit... hopefully Do you really think this is just an offset of one of the sensores - i personally dont think so because there is a thick black border in the green channel and a thick white border in the red channel - the blue channel seems to be ok! For me this is some sort of signal processing error where they try to get sharpness or extra resolution for the cam - maybe it is from this pixel shift thing and the integration is set too aggressively - otherwise the whole picture would have a shift and not just a black border appearing next to borders between black and white or dark and light horizontal borders in the red and green channel only... or am i missing something here - strangly this phenomenom is most visible on just one side the right side of the cam... ? Is someone here who has a lot of knowledge in terms of signal processing or how pixel shift gets realised - is the pixel shift in the canon horizontal or vertical? Thanks again for any help - btw. canon is watching this forum too :)

January 31st, 2006, 04:49 AM	#30
Jack Foley Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 42	Canon in Austria Michael, your report really, really scares the hell out of me. I am in Austria, Vienna as well, and I am really interested in this cam. I just got a call from a Canon rep who said I might be able to test a model over the next weekend. And I am quite sure that I will like it. But I am afraid that when I say, ok, I order one, they will give me a new box and the cam inside that box will have the same problems as your's. (Maybe here in Austria we get the sub-standard goods that did not pass for the US, who knows :P ) If support is really as bad as you describe, I am also concerned about lit/dead pixels that will occur over time. Normally it should be a simple mapping out process (at least on JVC/Pana it is that way) in one of the cam's menus. But if it is impossible to even reach a technical person here and I have to send the cam to Germany or wherever it will take weeks till I will get it back. Btw, here is a res-chart you can print that should show your problems better than the office shots you made so far. http://fabforce.net/various/ISO_12233-reschart.pdf If I get the cam for this weekend I can offer you to meet so we can do comparison shots that will outline that you have a defective model and get a new one. I really hope this works out for you. Jack p.s.: It costs 600 Euros to enable NTSC in the PAL model. Once enabled, one can switch between 50i / 60i / 24F / 25F / 30F.

January 28th, 2006, 09:27 AM	#16
A. J. deLange Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: McLean, VA United States Posts: 749	If it's on one side of the picture only or prefferentially it is not chromatic aberration. CA manifests itself by red or blue fringing on the outside or inside (depending on whether the lens is over or undercorrected) of a circle centered on the center of the image. The simplest way to detect CA is to transfer the image to a program like photoshop and to toggle between the red and blue and green images. If the red or blue image is bigger or smaller than the green i.e. if the picture appears to grow or shrink when you select one of these then you are seing CA. I've measured CA on the H1 and found it to fall on the boudary between low and moderate with the latter meaning that it is detectable on a large blowup of the image. I don't know what is plaguing Michael's images but I don't think it's CA. It could be "bloom" in which some of the light from a highly exposed pixel splashes over to a pixel in a dark region. I must say that overall I don't think the pictures he posted are as sharp as they should be for an XL-H1. I think checkout by Canon is in order.

January 28th, 2006, 10:07 AM	#17
Vince Gaffney Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 146	a problem like this was described to me as possible misalignment of the sensors. i agree with the bring it to canon philosophy. vince

January 28th, 2006, 12:21 PM	#18
Jacob Mason Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 205	I threw this together real quick and updated my post at DVX. Both show the consistency of this heavy CA anomaly. LINK HERE

January 28th, 2006, 01:28 PM	#19
Lauri Kettunen Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kangasala, Finland Posts: 445	I'm in process of capturing about 40 hours of XL2 material from tape to hard disk, and found today the following kind of image (be aware, it's 16:9 but resolution is still 720x576) www.luontovideo.net/ca-example.tif Although it's not taken with XL H1, the effect seems to be bit like Michael's example. Especially, the magenta color appears in the footage when the image is not in focus. Still, this is the only footage where I've found such an effect.

January 28th, 2006, 04:36 PM	#20
Michael Karrer Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Gleisdorf Austria Posts: 29	Thanks to all off you! I will do a lot more testing tomorrow - and i will post all results here on this forum. I have to say that i really like this cam - if only this magenta will go away... if it was a shift to the blue i would not mind that much but magenta is so obvious in most cases... I played with this horizontal vertical detail frequenze settings - they seem to help - does anybody know anything about them? Last question for today: is there a test chart for A3 (not A4) that i can print out? i know this question was asked elsewhere but if you could give me any link for a good chart or just some chart you want to see... Thanks!

January 29th, 2006, 12:03 AM	#21
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Maybe this problem is worse on PAL cameras because I have seen nothing of the sort from either my XL2 or the XLH I have been using. ash =o)

January 29th, 2006, 04:44 PM	#23
Vince Gaffney Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 146	it looks like the green channel is moved to the right. it's allowing the red in nearly full. on the right edge of the right monitor the green is clearly offest into the white back ground. they have to fix that. i tried to replcate it today and couldn't. good luck vince

January 29th, 2006, 05:47 PM	#24
Anthony McFadden Tourist Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3	i had a similar problem with my xl-2 it turned out to be delamination of one of the sensors, canon have a policy where they replace the camera if there is a fault in the first 14 days (here in australia anyway) looking at the pictures i would bet u have the same problem, i would contact canon asap regards, anthony mcfadden

January 30th, 2006, 03:53 AM	#26
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	Michael, this really sucks, specially that you seem to be the only user of this cam having this problem. The bright side of that is you being the only one around here means this shouldn't be there, so you have good chances of replacing the camera. In the worst case you can still work around it, depending on what you do with the camera. What's the type of production you use the camera for by the way?

January 30th, 2006, 04:30 PM	#27
Vince Gaffney Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 146	michael, i just showed this to an engineer friend of mine with no knowledge of the specific camera and the first thing he said was it was a registration problem. A misalignment that maybe mechanical, maybe electronic. he says he's 99% sure it is not from CA. He also suggested you get it back to canon if you have not already. HTH Vince

January 31st, 2006, 02:04 AM	#28
Michael Karrer Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Gleisdorf Austria Posts: 29	Horrible Support from Canon in Austria... - No exchange of the cam. - No technician to talk to - No direct Support from canon It sucks - it stinks - and i think i will sell my XL-H1 and go the panasonic route. I called canon they told me the whole service in Austria for the video cams is done by an external company called teletek - I called teletek and asked if i can speak with an technician there too show him the pictures before he gets the cam AND send him all information we already found out. They told me i have to have an professional number to talk to the technician? "But where do i get such a number from?" i asked - "From canon" they say... Called canon again - technician i already talked too - he was not reachable... Got a call from teletek - they told me that even if i had such a number it is not possible to talk to a technician because i would have to pay for that hour by my self even with this professional number because this number is only valid for slr cams... So if i had bought an slr for about 3000.- EUR I would have "professional" support ... If i buy an 9000 EUR camcorder i have to pay an hour if i want a simple phone call with an technician helping him with soving the problem... What options do i have? A) bring it in: If i bring it in i am not sure if they repair it, probably they tell me the cam is working ok - who knows? nobody wants too see the error before. B) Ask the shop where i bought it for another one - looooong waiting times C) Sell mine and buy a panasonic D) Nagging Canon again and again... Wait ... i get a phone call right now .... AND There it is! : while im writing this a technician from canon called me and told me that he is sorry for thath but the stupid teletek isnt smart enought to distinguish between professional and the comsummer area - a technician from teletek will call me soon - this kind of support is simply not installed in austria for pro camcorders... yet Stay tuned... I keep you informed - Thanks for all the repilies

January 31st, 2006, 02:49 AM	#29
Lauri Kettunen Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kangasala, Finland Posts: 445	Michael, you know that in EU the consumer has some rights as well. You've bought an equipment which seems to have some faults, and according to the EU rules you have a right to get it fixed or get the product changed. I would advice you to contact the Canon headquaters in Austria (call the Austrian salesmanager) or the European headquaters, which I think is in Holland where Canon seems to have all the European store. If nothing else works out, why not contact the Canon headquaters in Japan?