XL-H1 and P+S test

[John Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Nick Hiltgen

I think that's my issue with the groundglass on the mini 35, there was NO gain at all on this, it's just thick grain, I think P+S needs to come out with HDV ground glass to keep it from being too big. We were shooting at around 1/120th in 24F on the mini 35 with an 85mm zeiss superspeed set at 1.3T.

Shannon, you're somewhat right in your guess. But it's not my job to promote the movie, however it definitely has a 28 days' later feel. (I hope the distribution is guaranteed as well!)

I'll post my full opinions on this shortly, but right now I need sleep.

Nick all I can find on the P+S website is that there are 0 - 8 speed settings for the oscillation movement on the glass - because you are shooting at twice the normal shutter speed for 60i cameras and 2.5 times the normal shutter speed for film, I would suggest you would have to run it close to maximum speed in order to avoid freezing the grain in your image,which could account for the problems. Also the more you stop down the relay lens, the more obvious the grain pattern.

[Nick Hiltgen]

John, maybe it's a problem with our unit but we're running at full speed (8) and wide open (1) on the mini 35, I'm not really sure what else we can change. Could it be the fast shutter speed makes the grain more pronounced? I'll try and post some 1/48 stuff soon.

[Shannon Rawls]

Originally Posted by Nick Hiltgen

Could it be the fast shutter speed makes the grain more pronounced?

Absolutely! Nick dammit, you know better then to even ask that question.....don't you?? The high shutter speed is going to catch the ground glass/relay lens in the mini35 much easier then if you were at 1/48th. Just like it catches water droplets when filming water gushing from a hose or pouring from a glass. Nick are you drunk again? *smile*

I am sure P+S is working on an update. They are advertising the XL-H1 on their website, so I hope they are prepared for people having concerns like this. I was considering buying one, because I hate renting them. But I won't if it can't handle HD.

- ShannonRawls.com

[Michael Pappas]

Hi Nick,


If it were me I would scrap the mini 35 and go with either a 16x or 14x manual lens. I guess it would be to late though. I hated that ground glass look many years ago when it first came out, and I hate it today...

Nick where is your sharpness setting, it appears to high. If it's at 0 you should go down between -3 to - 6. If its down, go a little lower then. The hyping on edges is to extreme. If it's for effect, still lower it. you can always add the hyping look back in post. I like to shoot for a clean and healthy neg or digital master and then F%#& it up in post all I want......


pappas

Originally Posted by Nick Hiltgen

I think that's my issue with the groundglass on the mini 35, there was NO gain at all on this, it's just thick grain, I think P+S needs to come out with HDV ground glass to keep it from being too big. We were shooting at around 1/120th in 24F on the mini 35 with an 85mm zeiss superspeed set at 1.3T.

Shannon, you're somewhat right in your guess. But it's not my job to promote the movie, however it definitely has a 28 days' later feel. (I hope the distribution is guaranteed as well!)

I'll post my full opinions on this shortly, but right now I need sleep.

[Dan McCain]

I am the owner of the Mini35 rig that is working on this shoot. I have observed the "ground glass" problem that is being talked about here. The problem being described is actually not the ground glass. When the ground glass is spun the grain virtually disappears. Nick is reffering to an addtional frozen grain that appears on top of that. This grain is independent of spinning the glass. Tommorow, if they have a few seconds I am going to try a few experiments to see if we can isolate the problem. I suspect the problem is from the ziess lens (I have discovered a similar problem on a lens with a sky light filter), however I will take my Nikons to set tommorow a try some experiments to see if we can discover the root of the problem.

I have spoken with Guy the engineer at ZGC who told me the ground glass used on the mini35 is the same ground glass used in the pro35, so if this were the problem the pro35 would have similar problems with the big cams.

[Nick Hiltgen]

Michael, I'll check that sharpness setting, maybe that's what's introducing our extra "grain" for some reason I think it's at -1 now but I could be wrong.

[Levan Bakhia]

I also, did some shooting with XL H1 and mini35. I also experience grain problem. And I also checked it with PS technics technical support, and they told me that high resolution of xl h1 couldn't be a problem with grain, since it the same ground glass is used in pro35, thus used with Cinealta they didn't have problems.

I did a lot of tweaking and finally arrived to some shots that seems to not have grain at all, or at least some grain, which is even nice and gives the shot more filmick look.

So, I thinks it is a matter of experience and experimenting. I will post my clips shortly. and seek your opinion.

[Michael Pappas]

But it's the first 1/3 ccd that has this high of res that's like a f900. This might be one reason. Maybe!

Originally Posted by Levan Bakhia

I also, did some shooting with XL H1 and mini35. I also experience grain problem. And I also checked it with PS technics technical support, and they told me that high resolution of xl h1 couldn't be a problem with grain, since it the same ground glass is used in pro35, thus used with Cinealta they didn't have problems.

I did a lot of tweaking and finally arrived to some shots that seems to not have grain at all, or at least some grain, which is even nice and gives the shot more filmick look.

So, I thinks it is a matter of experience and experimenting. I will post my clips shortly. and seek your opinion.

[Levan Bakhia]

Originally Posted by Michael Pappas

But it's the first 1/3 ccd that has this high of res that's like a f900. This might be one reason. Maybe!

Well, ok, it is first 1/3 ccd, but resolution is resolution, and I don't think that grain has anything to do with the size of the ccd.

Other than that, I did a lot of experimenting, and now I achieved pretty nice pictures with mini35. I don't seen any grain, at least not more than film has. Actually, I think some grain that stayed make it look much better and more filmik. So, if any of you can share web space, I could upload them and you could watch. I am also looking for some web space myself and whenever I'll have it I will let you know. Meanwhile I do some more shooting with it, and I think even improve the picture quality, as my experience with mini35 gets broader.

Well, from what I see now on my 23 inch apple HD monitor, picture is great, everybody thought it was shoot on 35mm.

I use, Canon K series aspherical superspeed cinema lenses.

[Shawn Alyasiri]

Levan,

Email Chris Hurd - he has been most helpful and generous in finding host space for test footage. I'm sure we'd all love to see your tests - most certainly myself.

I'm very interested in acquiring an H1, with a strong wish to use it with one of my mini35's. If you have any footage of the H1/mini35 with zeiss superspeeds in 60i and 24f modes, it would be incredible.

Thanks again,
Shawn

[Pete Bauer]

Chris is on the road this week (MacWorld), so I don't think he is going to be able to help right now...plus we are all taking so much more of our time lately to keep the flamers, trolls, profanity, and off-topic rants under control we have little time left for moving forward with interesting new content -- WHY, OH WHY can't everyone just respect the DVIinfo POLICY?

When he can, I'm sure Chris will respond about whether or not he can host some clips, but it might be a while.

[Christopher Glaeser]

Originally Posted by Levan Bakhia

Well, ok, it is first 1/3 ccd, but resolution is resolution, and I don't think that grain has anything to do with the size of the ccd.

Are you using "grain" as a synonym for "noise"? Smaller sensors imply smaller pixels (assuming same pixel count) which typically have more noise than sensors with larger pixels (assuming similar sensor technology). That is why P&S digicams with very small sensors have considerably more noise than 35mm SLR digicams with full-frame sensors.

Best,
Christopher

[Levan Bakhia]

Originally Posted by Christopher Glaeser

Are you using "grain" as a synonym for "noise"? Smaller sensors imply smaller pixels (assuming same pixel count) which typically have more noise than sensors with larger pixels (assuming similar sensor technology). That is why P&S digicams with very small sensors have considerably more noise than 35mm SLR digicams with full-frame sensors.

Best,
Christopher

Well, what I mean is, the grain that is on the Ground glass. The first time I connected my xl h1 to mini35 and shot something, and then watched it on the monitor, I thought that I just lost $12000 which I payed for mini35. Because, you could actually see the ground class over the image, and you could even detect the movement of the ground glass. It was terrible. Then I called PS technics, and they explained to me that it couldn't be because of the resolution of the camera, rather it was from me not having experience. They told me some tips, and I applied them. Every next shot I did was improved over the last one, in terms of grain. Yesterday, I did some shots, and I achieved such a clean image (in terms of grain) that I even didn't like it, since usually film also has grain. From what I wrote here, I am not sure if I am confusion the right terminology of "noise" and "grain", but my understanding is that noise is something that is produced with video cameras in low light situations, and grain is actually the ground glass stucture, that can be seen.

So I hope that unswered the question. Also, I was promised a free web space, and I hope I will be able to post the clips shortly.

And I will post all of the new ones also.

[Martin Costa]

Hi Levan, I too have a mini 35 and am having grain issues with my XLH1. Could you let me konw what they said about reducing the grain.

Thanks Martin

[Levan Bakhia]

Here is the file you can download. It is an indoor shot as you will see, with a lot of dark areas in the picture. And in times the guy goes out of the focus. This is because, I have noticed that outdoor shots with a lot of light, have no problem with grain (also I have daylight shots, but there is not enough space to upload all), also grain tends to appear on darker parts of the image, and also when something in the picture is out of focus. So, I tried to solve that problem, so see for yourself, I think I overdid it, because now I think it is very clean, I think some more grain might not harm the picture.

I will be waiting for your comments.

so I am not sure if I write the link correctly but I uploaded the file to: http://209.82.46.115/H1+mini35.mov

It will take about 5 more hours to upload. so be patient.