Possible answer to H1 Audio? at DVinfo.net

Barlow Elton · December 26th, 2005, 03:55 PM

http://sweetwatersound.com/store/detail/HDP2/

How do you convert time code from the BNC of the H1 to an XLR cable?
This seems like a good, cheap workaround for superior acquisition audio.

Shannon Rawls · December 26th, 2005, 04:48 PM

you can change BNC to XLR using a simple adapter. You can find them at Pacific Radio www.PacRad.com or on eBay even. About $5 bucks. I have 2 in my sound kit.

Only problem is, it's better to slave the camera FROM a sound device rather TO one in most movie making environments. Generally, your sound is speeding first during roll call, so it's better to have your sound device generate the code and jam the camera instead of the other way around.

For live gigs, like concerts, interviews & speeches, it's still better because you can start capture on the audio and be done with it. Then you can focus on operating the camera and starting and stoping as needed while audio is still rolling. Hell, with CF Cards there's no need to "EVER" stop the audio actually. That way, your camera will always be fed the most current Timecode when your shooting at all times.

- ShannonRawls.com

Barlow Elton · December 26th, 2005, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls

Only problem is, it's better to slave the camera FROM a sound device rather TO one in most movie making environments. Generally, your sound is speeding first during roll call, so it's better to have your sound device generate the code and jam the camera instead of the other way around.

- ShannonRawls.com

Enlighten me if I'm wrong, but I think this device CAN do that.

Seems like a really cool recorder.

Shannon Rawls · December 26th, 2005, 04:54 PM

Naw Barlow, I was already all over it when it was announced. I wanted to go tapeless and stop using a Fostex PD-4.

However, it has timecode "IN" only. it wont send it out.

- ShannonRawls.com

Barlow Elton · December 26th, 2005, 05:55 PM

Bum deal...drrr. I should've looked for that little detail

Barlow Elton · December 26th, 2005, 11:16 PM

Shannon,

I know it's against the usual set protocol, but why couldn't you just roll sound
until the camera actually rolls, and wouldn't the sound recorder pick up the timecode there? Would that problematic?

Seems like a minor inconvenience.

Shannon Rawls · December 27th, 2005, 02:14 AM

No Barlow, you don't want to do that. The reason is because the Camera Operator and the Sound Mixer never stops both machines at the same time when "CUT!" is called by the Direcotr or AD. If the audio recorders timecode is ahead of the cameras timecode, and the audio recorder is the SLAVE and is being jamed by the camera, that will cause all kindsa of errors. Espeically if you don't have a good audio recorder. Some recorders will generate its own timecode if none is being fed to it, others will stay at the last number (which will confuse the editor like hell if the same timestamp lasts for many many seconds!) and other recorders won't roll at all without timecode being fed to it. It's always better to roll sound first and make the sound recorder the MASTER timecode generator and the camera the slave. Why?

always remember.....

....these protocols came from the world of "FILMMAKING"

So now tell me... what is cheaper to burn? Tape Stock or Film Stock?

Exactly! *smile*

Therefore, It's always been 'economical' to roll sound first, let everyone get settled, let the camera focus on the slate, make sure everyone is quiet (sound still rolling), get out those last few laughs, close that last door, wait for the airplane to fly by, and NOW...ROLL CAMERA.....SCENE ONE FIFTY ONE FOXTROT TAKE TWO! *smack*.....CAMERA SET.....ACTION!

That's why Camera is normally a Slave.....it receives already rolling timecode and begins to lay it as soon as the film(cassette) starts recording.

The only way to use the Tascam HD-P2 in a modern day video set with sync sound is if you roll Camera first, then Sound. You'll most likely be looked at kinda funny by your crew who probably isn't used to that (unless their all students) and you'll burn much more tape then needed. Just cause tape is cheap doesn't mean you should burn it up. That's what the ametuers do. Shoot Video as if it were Film....you're crew will appreciate it and you'll hone into your craft even better.

Nothing pisses me off more then a Green Director who misses a shot and just says "STOP, DON'T CUT, GO BACK LET'S TRY IT AGAIN, C'MON GUYS HURRY, KEEP ROLLING THE CAMERAS, OK, BACK TO ONE, HURRY....LETS GO AGAIN, KEEP IT ALL ROLLING, OK, ACTION!"

nawmean B.?

- ShannonRawls.com

Vince Gaffney · December 27th, 2005, 08:18 AM

Shannon,

I agree with film protocol when possible. I also believe that new technology warrants flexibilty. If jamming to audio in the case of the H1 allows for higher quality audio for now, I say have at it. Line it up in post and move on with the cut.

Vince

Steve Rosen · December 27th, 2005, 10:04 AM

You know, there is another old school sollution for this that I do all the time, partly out of habit and partly because I believe in the old Volkswagon mechanic philosophy "If it works, don't fix it".

It is called a slate. You can get a timecode slate or an old clapper slate. With a timecode slate you roll sound, the sound recordist is positioned in a place where you can shoot his rolling slate at the head of each shot, or tail if you chose. The traditional slate requires the old "mark it" command, but, you know what? Most of the best film have been made that way.

Another thing I have done is to record sound with another camcorder, say a PD-150. Attach a cheap LCD montor with a hood to it that shows the Data Screen from the viewfinder.. shoot it at the head of each take just like you would with a TC slate...

Or, have the sound recordist point the camcorder at the scene while he's recording and you will have a visual reference for sync.

It isn't that hard to sync dailies. and it doesn't take that much time. Sometimes the confusion caused by relying on too much electronics on the set ends up costing more time and money than simply falling back to 60 year old mechanical techniques that work...

December 26th, 2005, 03:55 PM	#1
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Possible answer to H1 Audio? http://sweetwatersound.com/store/detail/HDP2/ How do you convert time code from the BNC of the H1 to an XLR cable? This seems like a good, cheap workaround for superior acquisition audio.

December 26th, 2005, 04:48 PM	#2
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	you can change BNC to XLR using a simple adapter. You can find them at Pacific Radio www.PacRad.com or on eBay even. About $5 bucks. I have 2 in my sound kit. Only problem is, it's better to slave the camera FROM a sound device rather TO one in most movie making environments. Generally, your sound is speeding first during roll call, so it's better to have your sound device generate the code and jam the camera instead of the other way around. For live gigs, like concerts, interviews & speeches, it's still better because you can start capture on the audio and be done with it. Then you can focus on operating the camera and starting and stoping as needed while audio is still rolling. Hell, with CF Cards there's no need to "EVER" stop the audio actually. That way, your camera will always be fed the most current Timecode when your shooting at all times. - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

December 26th, 2005, 04:54 PM	#4
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	Naw Barlow, I was already all over it when it was announced. I wanted to go tapeless and stop using a Fostex PD-4. However, it has timecode "IN" only. it wont send it out. - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

December 27th, 2005, 02:14 AM	#7
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	No Barlow, you don't want to do that. The reason is because the Camera Operator and the Sound Mixer never stops both machines at the same time when "CUT!" is called by the Direcotr or AD. If the audio recorders timecode is ahead of the cameras timecode, and the audio recorder is the SLAVE and is being jamed by the camera, that will cause all kindsa of errors. Espeically if you don't have a good audio recorder. Some recorders will generate its own timecode if none is being fed to it, others will stay at the last number (which will confuse the editor like hell if the same timestamp lasts for many many seconds!) and other recorders won't roll at all without timecode being fed to it. It's always better to roll sound first and make the sound recorder the MASTER timecode generator and the camera the slave. Why? always remember..... ....these protocols came from the world of "FILMMAKING" So now tell me... what is cheaper to burn? Tape Stock or Film Stock? Exactly! smile Therefore, It's always been 'economical' to roll sound first, let everyone get settled, let the camera focus on the slate, make sure everyone is quiet (sound still rolling), get out those last few laughs, close that last door, wait for the airplane to fly by, and NOW...ROLL CAMERA.....SCENE ONE FIFTY ONE FOXTROT TAKE TWO! smack.....CAMERA SET.....ACTION! That's why Camera is normally a Slave.....it receives already rolling timecode and begins to lay it as soon as the film(cassette) starts recording. The only way to use the Tascam HD-P2 in a modern day video set with sync sound is if you roll Camera first, then Sound. You'll most likely be looked at kinda funny by your crew who probably isn't used to that (unless their all students) and you'll burn much more tape then needed. Just cause tape is cheap doesn't mean you should burn it up. That's what the ametuers do. Shoot Video as if it were Film....you're crew will appreciate it and you'll hone into your craft even better. Nothing pisses me off more then a Green Director who misses a shot and just says "STOP, DON'T CUT, GO BACK LET'S TRY IT AGAIN, C'MON GUYS HURRY, KEEP ROLLING THE CAMERAS, OK, BACK TO ONE, HURRY....LETS GO AGAIN, KEEP IT ALL ROLLING, OK, ACTION!" nawmean B.? - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

December 26th, 2005, 05:55 PM	#5
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Bum deal...drrr. I should've looked for that little detail

December 26th, 2005, 11:16 PM	#6
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Shannon, I know it's against the usual set protocol, but why couldn't you just roll sound until the camera actually rolls, and wouldn't the sound recorder pick up the timecode there? Would that problematic? Seems like a minor inconvenience.

December 27th, 2005, 08:18 AM	#8
Vince Gaffney Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 146	Shannon, I agree with film protocol when possible. I also believe that new technology warrants flexibilty. If jamming to audio in the case of the H1 allows for higher quality audio for now, I say have at it. Line it up in post and move on with the cut. Vince

December 27th, 2005, 10:04 AM	#9
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	You know, there is another old school sollution for this that I do all the time, partly out of habit and partly because I believe in the old Volkswagon mechanic philosophy "If it works, don't fix it". It is called a slate. You can get a timecode slate or an old clapper slate. With a timecode slate you roll sound, the sound recordist is positioned in a place where you can shoot his rolling slate at the head of each shot, or tail if you chose. The traditional slate requires the old "mark it" command, but, you know what? Most of the best film have been made that way. Another thing I have done is to record sound with another camcorder, say a PD-150. Attach a cheap LCD montor with a hood to it that shows the Data Screen from the viewfinder.. shoot it at the head of each take just like you would with a TC slate... Or, have the sound recordist point the camcorder at the scene while he's recording and you will have a visual reference for sync. It isn't that hard to sync dailies. and it doesn't take that much time. Sometimes the confusion caused by relying on too much electronics on the set ends up costing more time and money than simply falling back to 60 year old mechanical techniques that work...