XL H1 and 24F

[Nick Hiltgen]

Barry, I think we're in agreement here, someone earlier on the post had mentioned that the canon's 24F was flagged frames, and I wanted to put an end to that rumor. I agree with you (and was trying to say the same thing) on the analysis of 24F recording and Vericam recording in regards to how it's laid to tape. Reading back over it I can see that I wrote a little stream of consiousness and left out some critical words, but let me say that I agree with you in regards to laying tape.

And I agree the motion (which was my main concern with the test with shannon) IS right. I think it is an excellent picture, and I'm glad this hasn't turned into a platform debate (because we all know the Fisher Price pixelvision puts ALL cameras to shame) I think the thing that we're all having a hard time is the resolution chart stuff, and like you said, you want it done right you do it yourself, My chart was done as a reference to the F900, and probably shouldn't be considered as end all be all for the cameras resolution, personally I think it resolved better then 650 but hey that's me and I've been wrong before.

The chart that Shannon is talking about is all the way to the right, they are frame grabs of the HDV tape so it's compressed but to be honest it still looks good, I think they've been up for a while, though maybe not the whole time. Take a look at it tell me what you think, again my goal was to pit a (better) more expensive camera against a cheaper camera. Between the two I was happy with the comparison, but individual results may very.

[Michael Pappas]

Here is the link to the res chart!

http://www.cinemahill.com/hidef/xlh1&f900/

[Kevin Wild]

Originally Posted by Nick Hiltgen

...because we all know the Fisher Price pixelvision puts ALL cameras to shame...

But look out for the new Mattel Vidster! :-) Man, I've been all over trying to find one of these for my son. Nowhere to be found or sold out. Cool lil' device, though.

I'll stick with the H1 I'm receiving next week...

Kevin

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Michael Pappas

Here is the link to the res chart!

http://www.cinemahill.com/hidef/xlh1&f900/

Excellent! Thanks for the link.

Okay, first of all, let's clarify that reading a res chart is a very subjective process. The method I use is to count the individual lines in the wedge, and trace to the point where that many lines are no longer discretely discernable. It may "pick up" again after that point, but for consistency I use the point at which the camera first fails to cleanly resolve the individual lines.

Looking at this chart, and using the horizontal lines to measure vertical resolution (which is the only thing that 24F should be affecting), there are five lines coming in. Judging resolved resolution by the point where I can no longer distinguish 5 distinct lines, it appears to happen at about this point:


I'd call that about 620. Which again coincides with my reading of Pete's chart and the report from David.

I think it could have been a little better, as the framing on the shot of this chart is not exact; it lists a little bit to starboard, and it could have been zoomed in just a tad bit more too. So I think 650 is within reason.

Keep in mind that each individual will read the chart to their own subjective interpretation. But you asked where I'm getting my numbers from, and this is the methodology I use.

[Bob Grant]

Possibly stupid question here.
What does it matter how the CCDs are clocked? Clock them at 24Hz, 48Hz or even 96Hz so what?
Surely what matters is how they acquire the image that's being recorded. As I understand it the F900 clocks the CCDs at 48Hz, simply because of practical constraints but those two fields are acquired by the CCDs at the same point in time. I assume other cameras could do the same, after all the HD100 uses an odd scanning arrangment by scanning the CCDs in two halves.
I guess I'm assuming that each CCD element is connected to a sample and hold circuit. The charge on the CCD is reset, after time set by shutter speed the sample and hold circuits record the amount of charge lost and then those values are read. If I'm right (please tell me if I'm not), how the values from the sample and hold circuits are read matters not one bit.

If I'm wrong then I can think of a few other issues related to how things are scanned that no one seems to worry about.

[Michael Pappas]

[QUOTE=Barry Green]Excellent! Thanks for the link.


Anytime time Barry! I'm glad your here and invovled in this discussion!

pappas

[Bob Grant]

Barry,
interesting thing on those charts is how only the centre set of lines are affected. I've noticed that on the 60i charts from the camera as well, in fact I think I've noticed that on every chart I've looked at regardless of the camera. The outer line pairs are resolved way beyond what the inner ones are, are they not spaced equally or just what is going on.

[Michael Pappas]

Why is the chart the be all end all for this test.

As I said before:


Isn't it enough that a/b switching between a Sony F900

against the XLH1 on the "" same monitor ""says how good the XLH1 is?

If the XLH1 could only resolve 610 to 650 lines than how is it that it stacked

up against the f900's 850+ lines and sometimes they couldn't tell which one

was which?



A question I must ask is will the HVX200 be able to a/b to a F900 and have

the same results as the XLH1 had?


That last question is for you Barry since you have more time under the belt

with the HVX200.



I like both cameras, and this makes it hard to pick one. Smash them together and make the XL200 or the HVX-H1. Now your talking!



pappas

[Barlow Elton]

Here's a funky idea:

Anyone interested in a Skype conference call to debate this stuff further and post an mp3 of it?
I know it's goofy, but might be fun.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Michael Pappas

Why is the chart the be all end all for this test.

It isn't. But it is illustrative in determining whether 24F makes a difference or not. Clearly it does. It is, simply put, lower res than 60i.

That's what the question was at the beginning. And now we know the answer.

Isn't it enough that a/b switching between a Sony F900

against the XLH1 on the "" same monitor ""says how good the XLH1 is?

For some, sure. But then again, res charts are only one test; color sampling and dynamic range and highlight handling and compression quantizing and all sorts of other image quality factors are not measured by a res chart!

The question under discussion was not "is the XLH1 as good as an F900". The question was: "what's the deal with 24F?" That was what this thread was exploring.

If the XLH1 could only resolve 610 to 650 lines than how is it that it stacked up against the f900's 850+ lines and sometimes they couldn't tell which one was which?

That's a question that can only be answered by those who saw it themselves. Again, reading a res chart is quite subjective. Using my criteria would the F900 have resolved 850+ lines? Only shooting the same chart in the same place at the same time with the same shooter will answer that.

A question I must ask is will the HVX200 be able to a/b to a F900 and have the same results as the XLH1 had?

Won't know until I conduct that test, something I plan to do in late Dec. or probably early Jan. with all 5 cameras (HD100, Z1, XLH1, HVX, and F900).

I like both cameras, and this makes it hard to pick one. Smash them together and make the XL200 or the HVX-H1. Now your talking!

I've been asking Panasonic to do basically exactly that -- give us a shoulder-mount pro model sort of like the DSR250 was to the PD150. They are, quite understandably, a little more concerned with getting their existing product launched than talking about what may come next!

[Michael Pappas]

Thanks Barry! If you know when that test will be of all cameras, let me know and if it's cool I will fly out to Vegas to be a part of that! Unless it's going to be in LA then that's right here.............

pappas

Originally Posted by Barry Green

It isn't. But it is illustrative in determining whether 24F makes a difference or not. Clearly it does. It is, simply put, lower res than 60i.

That's what the question was at the beginning. And now we know the answer.


For some, sure. But then again, res charts are only one test; color sampling and dynamic range and highlight handling and compression quantizing and all sorts of other image quality factors are not measured by a res chart!

The question under discussion was not "is the XLH1 as good as an F900". The question was: "what's the deal with 24F?" That was what this thread was exploring.


That's a question that can only be answered by those who saw it themselves. Again, reading a res chart is quite subjective. Using my criteria would the F900 have resolved 850+ lines? Only shooting the same chart in the same place at the same time with the same shooter will answer that.


Won't know until I conduct that test, something I plan to do in late Dec. or probably early Jan. with all 5 cameras (HD100, Z1, XLH1, HVX, and F900).


I've been asking Panasonic to do basically exactly that -- give us a shoulder-mount pro model sort of like the DSR250 was to the PD150. They are, quite understandably, a little more concerned with getting their existing product launched than talking about what may come next!

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Michael Pappas

Thanks Barry! If you know when that test will be of all cameras, let me know and if it's cool I will fly out to Vegas to be a part of that! Unless it's going to be in LA then that's right here.............

pappas

I'm thinking of doing it in L.A. There just isn't any equipment base out here. I can get an F900 here, but I don't think there's even an XLH1 in town, and I don't know anyone with a Z1 -- I can lay my hands on a few FX1s but I'd rather have a Z1. And I don't know anyone here with an HD100, since I sent mine back. Besides, I like to have multiple sets of eyes, so going to L.A. would put me within range of guys like you, Nick, Evin Grant, Charles Papert, Nate Weaver, etc. Just seems to make more sense. Unless everyone was coming here for CES anyway, at which point maybe I'd just delay and do it then...

[Shannon Rawls]

Well Barry. My gear is your gear if you need it. And I hate to see them sit here doing noting. They look like furniture. So consider yourself with 2 basically unused cameras already. a Z1U and a XL-H1. You gotta come up with the others (unless I grab a HVX200 as well when its released)

Hopefully Nick will be back in town, and you can use his XL-H1 & F900 as well. I'll sit back and watch you expert DP's disect these animals.
Actually, I can shoot the "Behind The Scene Footage" with another camera! Then we can stream that on the web. How's that?

A test like that deserves it's own website & domain name!

- ShannonRawls.com

[Barry Green]

Well now, that takes care of two of the four, and I'll have an HVX, and if I can get Nate to come along that'll take care of the HD100. So yes, this should come together nicely! Thanks Shannon!

[Shannon Rawls]

The Rose Parade would be a NICE "practical" place to shoot once the studio tests are done as well.

- ShannonRawls.com