XL H1 Conversion From HD to SD

Steve Rosen · December 22nd, 2005, 07:48 PM

I am currently shooting 2 documentaries, one 58 minutes, the other 28 minutes. They are both SD projects - since tv land generally isn't up to speed on Hd documentaries yet (with the possible exception of wildlife).

I decided to buy the H1, shoot HDV 1080i and down convert to SD 16x9 for post. Why? Because documentaries (or any long film) take a while to shoot and edit, as much as 2+ years in my case. I figure if a film has potential for an afterlife in DVD I should try to anticipate what will be wanted 2 to 4 years from now. I can always go back and re-edit in HDV now because I have the backup...

Of course, with technology racing as it is, HDV will probably be obsolete and a new higher resolution format that records on Post-its will probably foil my plan.. but, hey, I'm trying...

FYI: The down-conversion looks superb, possibly a little better than my XL2, but I haven't done a side-by-side comparison yet. Oh, and the manual lens looks pretty good on the H1 too, but the 20X is better, especially wide.

Question: Anyone using the Sony deck with the H1 footage? I'm having to digitize with the camera and I really hate that. I will get a Sony as soon as I'm sure it'll work (in 1080i, I know the 24F problem)... By the way, the JVC will play 1080i but will apparently only record 720p... Steve Rosen

Shannon Rawls · December 22nd, 2005, 07:59 PM

Steve!

Smart Thinking. Rarely do you find people who think like you.....AHEAD!

Yes, I am confident that the Sony HDV deck will playback your HDV 1080i60 footage shot with your XL-H1. It will NOT however playback your 24p or 30p footage.

Do you like the downconversion? I beleive when you do a side-by-side comparison of your XL2 SD footage and your XL-H1 downconverted-SD footage you will concur that the XL-H1 footage is nicer, brighter & more vivid in colors. I don't think I will ever downconvert footage in-camera. but I am going to follow Douglas Spotted Eagles advice and allow my computer to do all downconverting. Also, by doing it that way, I'll never need to go back to tape for the ONLINE because I will already have my HD footage captured. The manual lens looks cool? You say the 20x is better in wide....how so? Is it wider? sharper? what's up?

And what city are you in? your profile doesn't say.

insider tip: since you don't need it right away.....don't buy the sony deck just yet. something *awesome* is about to be announced.

- ShannonRawls.com

Anthony Marotti · December 22nd, 2005, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls

Steve!

I don't think I will ever downconvert footage in-camera. but I am going to follow Douglas Spotted Eagles advice and allow my computer to do all downconverting.

- ShannonRawls.com

Hello Again !

How do you allow the computer to handle the downconverting, especially if you are not using Canopus products??

Thanks !!

Shannon Rawls · December 22nd, 2005, 10:24 PM

Easy... Sony Vegas will downconvert HDV no problem. I capture the full .m2t and place them in Vegas. Vegas then renders me out a DV Proxy file using the famous GEARSHIFT program from VASST.COM.

Now I am starting to take a liking to CINEFORM PROSPECT HD 2.1 as well. it will take your .m2t files and make them a HD proxy that you can use to edit and finish with. Their tests claim that if you convert to cinform .avi type file then you can cut it and finish it and apply all your effects, transitions and color corrections to it and it will look better then native HDV .2t would have in the end.

- ShannonRawls.com

Anthony Marotti · December 22nd, 2005, 10:29 PM

Hi, I assume that I can do it in PremierePro 1.5??

Steve Rosen · December 23rd, 2005, 10:32 AM

Shannon: I am in Monterey CA, not too far away. I graduated from the UCLA film Dept. many years ago, worked in the "industry" for a while, then hid out up here...

The 16X lens looks pretty good. At full wide angle both lenses suffer a little in SD. In HDV the 20X has the definite edge, but the rest of the zoom range is pretty close. This isn't chart testing, I only do that for back focus checks. My opinions are based on real world, mostly hand-held, shooting... (and I'm sorry, but I'm way too busy to post clips but I appreciate those who do).

You are right that the color seems richer from the HDV down-conversion. I still don't have my menu settings exactly where I want them, but I do like the two Cine Gamma choices in the new camera.. #2 is similar to the Panasonic DVX 100A that everyone likes so much...

I edit on FCP, so I am down-converting from the camera for now... I actually ordered the Sony deck today - I had originally intended to wait until something came out that would play 24F, but that may never happen. I considered Firestore (not yet available for Canon HDV either) as well, but it seems needlessly complicated for fast shooting...

All in all, I am very impressed with this camera. I'm not usually swayed by the physical appearance of tools, but this thing is flat out elegant looking. Fitted with mini-rods, a Chrosziel matte box, Anton Bauer battery and custom grips, it looks like a film camera.. similar to my super16 Aaton... Steve Rosen

Shannon Rawls · December 23rd, 2005, 10:50 AM

Cool Steve.

And by the way, the Firestore FS4-Pro does support Canon HDV in all modes. Always have.

- ShannonRawls.com

Steve Rosen · December 23rd, 2005, 11:11 AM

Really, I was told by ZGC that it isn't available yet. Have you used it? I've been told that it's a major pain in the ass if you're moving quickly.. set-up etc.. I'd appreciate your oppinion..

By the way, check out

pbs.org/accidentalhero

for info on a film I made in mini DV 5-6 years ago (with my DSR-300). It's the project that won me over to shooting tape... Steve Rosen

Ron Pfister · December 23rd, 2005, 11:33 AM

I'm using the FS-4 Pro in DV mode (can't comment on HDV - I don't have that option added nor do I have a cam to feed it). While the usability of the FS-4 is questionable (at least if one is a Mac user ;), it works just fine once you've wrapped your head around it. Loud fan - yes; no physical lock-function for the controls - yes. But it doesn't loose it settings when powering off, so once you've set it up and it runs, it works well and quickly enough for me. If you power it off between takes, it takes a while to start up again. But if you have several batteries around (or feed it externally), you shouldn't have a need to do this...

HTH,

Ron

Steve Rosen · December 23rd, 2005, 12:19 PM

Ron, do you loose settings when you change batteries? How loud is the fan? I understand from the site (where these issues are probably more appropriatly discussed) that they are working on a quieter fan...

Ron Pfister · December 23rd, 2005, 12:36 PM

No, I doesn't lose settings when changing the battery. I'm just checking what happens if the battery is out for an extended period of time, but I don't think the settings are lost that way, either. Update: Even after about 5 minutes w/o any power, the unit doesn't loose its settings.

The fan can be quite loud and has an unpleasant pitch at high rpm (at least my unit does) - depends on ambient temp and how long/hard the unit has to work. Using the Retro Cache feature, e.g. results in higher fan rpm in my experience.

A quieter fan would definitely be a bonus. I think they should design a metal enclosure and do away with the fan altogehter. Using the unit with the optionally available hot-shoe adapter right next to the XL-cam's micro is definitely a rediculous marketing gag. No way you can get away with that! - unless you favor a jet engine-like sound as the background of your recording ;)

But if you're shooting in an environment with a 'healthy' background noise level and you have the FS-4 clipped to your belt on your side or behind your back, there's no problem...

I agree, though, that this is probably best discussed elsewhere (DTE/DTD forum)..

December 22nd, 2005, 07:59 PM	#17
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	Steve! Smart Thinking. Rarely do you find people who think like you.....AHEAD! Yes, I am confident that the Sony HDV deck will playback your HDV 1080i60 footage shot with your XL-H1. It will NOT however playback your 24p or 30p footage. Do you like the downconversion? I beleive when you do a side-by-side comparison of your XL2 SD footage and your XL-H1 downconverted-SD footage you will concur that the XL-H1 footage is nicer, brighter & more vivid in colors. I don't think I will ever downconvert footage in-camera. but I am going to follow Douglas Spotted Eagles advice and allow my computer to do all downconverting. Also, by doing it that way, I'll never need to go back to tape for the ONLINE because I will already have my HD footage captured. The manual lens looks cool? You say the 20x is better in wide....how so? Is it wider? sharper? what's up? And what city are you in? your profile doesn't say. insider tip: since you don't need it right away.....don't buy the sony deck just yet. something awesome is about to be announced. - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

December 22nd, 2005, 10:24 PM	#19
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	Easy... Sony Vegas will downconvert HDV no problem. I capture the full .m2t and place them in Vegas. Vegas then renders me out a DV Proxy file using the famous GEARSHIFT program from VASST.COM. Now I am starting to take a liking to CINEFORM PROSPECT HD 2.1 as well. it will take your .m2t files and make them a HD proxy that you can use to edit and finish with. Their tests claim that if you convert to cinform .avi type file then you can cut it and finish it and apply all your effects, transitions and color corrections to it and it will look better then native HDV .2t would have in the end. - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

December 22nd, 2005, 10:29 PM	#20
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	Hi, I assume that I can do it in PremierePro 1.5?? __________________ AM

December 23rd, 2005, 10:50 AM	#22
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	Cool Steve. And by the way, the Firestore FS4-Pro does support Canon HDV in all modes. Always have. - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

December 23rd, 2005, 11:33 AM	#24
Ron Pfister Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Basel area, Switzerland Posts: 285	I'm using the FS-4 Pro in DV mode (can't comment on HDV - I don't have that option added nor do I have a cam to feed it). While the usability of the FS-4 is questionable (at least if one is a Mac user ;), it works just fine once you've wrapped your head around it. Loud fan - yes; no physical lock-function for the controls - yes. But it doesn't loose it settings when powering off, so once you've set it up and it runs, it works well and quickly enough for me. If you power it off between takes, it takes a while to start up again. But if you have several batteries around (or feed it externally), you shouldn't have a need to do this... HTH, Ron __________________ Ronald P. Pfister halimedia - digital solutions and services www.halimedia.com

December 22nd, 2005, 07:48 PM	#16
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	I am currently shooting 2 documentaries, one 58 minutes, the other 28 minutes. They are both SD projects - since tv land generally isn't up to speed on Hd documentaries yet (with the possible exception of wildlife). I decided to buy the H1, shoot HDV 1080i and down convert to SD 16x9 for post. Why? Because documentaries (or any long film) take a while to shoot and edit, as much as 2+ years in my case. I figure if a film has potential for an afterlife in DVD I should try to anticipate what will be wanted 2 to 4 years from now. I can always go back and re-edit in HDV now because I have the backup... Of course, with technology racing as it is, HDV will probably be obsolete and a new higher resolution format that records on Post-its will probably foil my plan.. but, hey, I'm trying... FYI: The down-conversion looks superb, possibly a little better than my XL2, but I haven't done a side-by-side comparison yet. Oh, and the manual lens looks pretty good on the H1 too, but the 20X is better, especially wide. Question: Anyone using the Sony deck with the H1 footage? I'm having to digitize with the camera and I really hate that. I will get a Sony as soon as I'm sure it'll work (in 1080i, I know the 24F problem)... By the way, the JVC will play 1080i but will apparently only record 720p... Steve Rosen

December 23rd, 2005, 10:32 AM	#21
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	Shannon: I am in Monterey CA, not too far away. I graduated from the UCLA film Dept. many years ago, worked in the "industry" for a while, then hid out up here... The 16X lens looks pretty good. At full wide angle both lenses suffer a little in SD. In HDV the 20X has the definite edge, but the rest of the zoom range is pretty close. This isn't chart testing, I only do that for back focus checks. My opinions are based on real world, mostly hand-held, shooting... (and I'm sorry, but I'm way too busy to post clips but I appreciate those who do). You are right that the color seems richer from the HDV down-conversion. I still don't have my menu settings exactly where I want them, but I do like the two Cine Gamma choices in the new camera.. #2 is similar to the Panasonic DVX 100A that everyone likes so much... I edit on FCP, so I am down-converting from the camera for now... I actually ordered the Sony deck today - I had originally intended to wait until something came out that would play 24F, but that may never happen. I considered Firestore (not yet available for Canon HDV either) as well, but it seems needlessly complicated for fast shooting... All in all, I am very impressed with this camera. I'm not usually swayed by the physical appearance of tools, but this thing is flat out elegant looking. Fitted with mini-rods, a Chrosziel matte box, Anton Bauer battery and custom grips, it looks like a film camera.. similar to my super16 Aaton... Steve Rosen

December 23rd, 2005, 11:11 AM	#23
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	Really, I was told by ZGC that it isn't available yet. Have you used it? I've been told that it's a major pain in the ass if you're moving quickly.. set-up etc.. I'd appreciate your oppinion.. By the way, check out pbs.org/accidentalhero for info on a film I made in mini DV 5-6 years ago (with my DSR-300). It's the project that won me over to shooting tape... Steve Rosen

December 23rd, 2005, 12:19 PM	#25
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	Ron, do you loose settings when you change batteries? How loud is the fan? I understand from the site (where these issues are probably more appropriatly discussed) that they are working on a quieter fan...

December 23rd, 2005, 12:36 PM	#26
Ron Pfister Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Basel area, Switzerland Posts: 285	No, I doesn't lose settings when changing the battery. I'm just checking what happens if the battery is out for an extended period of time, but I don't think the settings are lost that way, either. Update: Even after about 5 minutes w/o any power, the unit doesn't loose its settings. The fan can be quite loud and has an unpleasant pitch at high rpm (at least my unit does) - depends on ambient temp and how long/hard the unit has to work. Using the Retro Cache feature, e.g. results in higher fan rpm in my experience. A quieter fan would definitely be a bonus. I think they should design a metal enclosure and do away with the fan altogehter. Using the unit with the optionally available hot-shoe adapter right next to the XL-cam's micro is definitely a rediculous marketing gag. No way you can get away with that! - unless you favor a jet engine-like sound as the background of your recording ;) But if you're shooting in an environment with a 'healthy' background noise level and you have the FS-4 clipped to your belt on your side or behind your back, there's no problem... I agree, though, that this is probably best discussed elsewhere (DTE/DTD forum).. __________________ Ronald P. Pfister halimedia - digital solutions and services www.halimedia.com