What is the Light Sensitivity and Lens Speed? at DVinfo.net

Shawn Alyasiri · November 1st, 2005, 06:08 PM

Sorry if this was already covered - I tried doing a search and either couldn't find the information or the search utility was bombing out.

Is the light sensitivity for the H1 reported anywhere? I'm assuming F8 @ 2000lux - similar to the Z1 or the HD100?

Additionally, is the lens f/2.8 when zoomed in and in the f/1.6 range when wide (like the z1)?

I'm downloading the test footage, but so far I've just seen images outside.

I'd like to get a sense of it's low-light capability, and how it's looking with appropriate gain applied. I've been quite impressed with the Z1 in 60i and it's low-light capability.

Thanks in advance,
Shawn

Pekka Uotila · November 2nd, 2005, 04:34 PM

Well,
When reading this please remember, I have not played very much with these kind of cameras....
But,
I have been testing XL H1 pal version in SD mode a bit tonight and I would rate the sensitivity of the camera with basic settings (gain 0, shutter 1/50, everything else in factorysettings) somewhere around 250 ASA. The camera I have (only tonight) is a demoversion that they say it is about 90% or more like the one that will be forsale.
This is just an opinion not a scientifical statement (LOL) but in general Canon XL H1 seems to be sensitive enough for my purposes and I like it.
I used the exposuremeter for this estimation, the amount of the light at the center of greycard was about 23 FC / 26lux. My "correct" exposure was F:2.2.
I have also been comparing it to Sony PD 150 P and I would say that Canon is a bit less sensitive than this old lady, roughly about half a stop. I made the whitebalance for both cameras and I was shooting a greycard with six other tones, three towards white and three towards black.
I connected both cameras to FCP via firewire to see the teschart with the waveform monitor.
There I could see that when the grey is at 50% XL-H1 F:stop is 2.2 and the same exposure(50% in grey) I get with Sony when the aperture is set to F:2.8.
With this exposure the Sony seemed to have much more contrast, the "white" was about 100% and with Canon it was less than 90%. The "black" seemed to be blacker with sony, about 5% and with Canon the "black" was still over 10%.
Both cameras were again in basic settings.
So, in general it seems to me that Canon has much more latitude than this old, very nice Sony PD150P. So to estimate sensitivity is abit tricky...
but like I said, my first impression of the Canon is in general very very good.
The lense begins from wide F:1.6 and is between Z: 1 - 36. Then F: 1.8 between Z:37 - 65, F:2 between Z: 66 - 80,..... and at the tele end Z:100 it is F:3.5. Canon has this "Z" style to express focal lenghts.
I hope this helps.

Bill Pryor · November 2nd, 2005, 08:53 PM

Good information, but you lost me on the Z thing. It doesn't give focal length in millimeters?

Pete Bauer · November 2nd, 2005, 10:46 PM

Pekka,
I am very jealous! Can you add to your report to clear up an inconsistency between various sources? Does the H1's 20x lens stop down to F9 or F16?
Thanks!

Pekka Uotila · November 2nd, 2005, 11:52 PM

Yes, with the focal lengths XL H1 has it's own scale from Z: 1 to 100. The other possibility is the bar where is a small cursor that gives an idea where the focal lenght is on the range.
The smallest aperture is F: 9.5 through the lense, next to it is close.
At the tele end the largest aperture is 3.4 not 3.5 like I had written earlier.

Pete Bauer · November 3rd, 2005, 09:08 PM

Thanks! I'm only guessing, but perhaps Canon had to make some compromises to ensure the lens met the resolution requirements for HD.

Pekka Uotila · November 4th, 2005, 02:20 AM

You're welcome,
I think somebody was writing very well about this smallest aperture matter under the thread about Kaku's clips part two. In general, "all the lenses" start to loose the sharpness if the aperture is smaller than 11. In bigger formats it does not matter so much, it depends ofcourse how critical one is.
From outside the zoomlense looks alike the XL-2 zoom. Canon says that it has better coatings, the closest focusing distance is at the tele end seemed to be 1 meter and at the wide end it was 0.1 m, propably it even closer. The distance number were visible in the viewfinder(from the menu you can choose whether you want it feets/meters). I was also measuring the distances with a measuringtape and the distance readings seemed to be very accurate but I did not test it with longer distances.. Anyway, to me these are very important features.
The other new thing, when comparing to XL-2 was/is backfocus adjustment that has three possibilities. This function is operated from the menu and the camera does it "automatically" or "manually", (I guess one can also cheat the camera in that setting, that could be useful if one wants to use a 35mm DOF adapter). The third possibility is default.
Autofocus is a bit slow, specially in 25F mode, it is even said in the manual. The lense is a bit senseless when focusing manually like all these kind of videolenses but I think it is very good in it's own cathegory. The good thing is that it does not "breathe" when focused. At the wide end the focusing from infinity to macro is very short movement, at the tele end it seemed to be longer. Strange (I realise now), because to my opinion the zoom hold the focus very well when zoomed from wide to tele.
I looked also "the checkboard test chart" with my monitor and it seemed like the chromatic aberration was there but to my opinion very slightly, just like somebody was writing under Kaku's clip's thread.
Well, I was testing alone and in late hours and with my limited equipment resources so these really are more opinions than facts...

Pekka Uotila · November 4th, 2005, 02:40 AM

Unfortunally it seems that I cannot edit my posts... but I want to say two more things.
The chromatic aberration was very very small to my opinion, I could rather feel it than see it from my 14" monitor (but I could also see it). I've seen something much worse....
The manual said about the autofocus that it is slowlier when camera is in 25F mode.
Cheers

Tony Davies-Patrick · November 4th, 2005, 02:47 AM

Thank you for your giving us your thoughts following your short time with the camera, Pekka.

Two unanswered questions I put forward in Kaku's thread that you may be able to answer: Do you have any information about Canon bringing out a wide-angle lens to fit the H1?
I have heard that Canon can modify the NTSC version so that it can be used ,with the flick of a switch, for both Pal and NTSC - is this true?

One last question: What is your honest opinion on the image quality of the H1, when compared to its non HD versions such as the XL1s and XL2? (...a slight improvement, or vast improvement?).

Pekka Uotila · November 4th, 2005, 03:34 AM

Tony,
I have no idea what Canon is planning... but I wish they will continue their path and that new lense possibilities for new cameras will come. I hope they will stay in the business...
I have also two other wishes for this XL-H1 that I hope they will do for it before selling it.
First wish: shutter speed 1/40 or variable shutterspeed between 1/25 - 1/50.
Second wish: The viewfinder's flipmode should be available also with Canon's own stocklense.
Maybe even these "small" wishes are too difficult to do at this moment.

I think it is writtten in many places that one camera can be upgraded to have both NTSC and PAL modes. If I remember right this upgrading was quite cheap to my opinion...

What is my personal opinion about XL H1?
Well,
First, I like Canon's XL cameras...(I like many other cameras aswell but I love cameras that are running and under my control)
I have seen XL-2 and XL-H1 side by side about an half an hour and I was able to record few shots with both cameras in miniDV mode. I feel that H1 is more light sensitive and it has few other very important features (most of them is said above) for me that I believe are worth of paying even when used in SD reality.
I hope you got some new information.

Tony Davies-Patrick · November 4th, 2005, 03:40 AM

Thank you Pekka.

Pekka Uotila · November 7th, 2005, 02:45 PM

Hi once more,
after studying my few shots side by side between XL-2 and XL H1 that I did previously (in SD mode again with zero settings), I've noticed that yes, the XL H1 is more sensitive than XL-2 but what makes XL H1 totally different is how wide it's exposure latitude is with basic settings.
Today I happen to have XL-2 in front of me so few more opinions.
The new thing in XL H1is that one can adjust it's colors, gain etc. settings so much more. With XL-2 I have a feeling that one can "only" finetune the colours.
If one wants forexample "The Amelie look", with XL H1 it can be easily done already in the camera (if one just can decide what the look is).
The viewfinder is a bit better than in XL-2, but there are few things that help focusing essentially. One can turn the peaking on (only on or off), and for prefocusing "magnifying" possibility is very helpful too. The viewfinder can be also turned to B&W but ofcourse it does not become a hires viewfinder....
Ok, I confess, I am very impressed of XL H1 even thought it is "only" a videocamera. I think it is amazing, it will be very interesting reading when the official testwritings will come here to DVi !
Chris, can you give any estimation when somebody is writing seriously about Canon XL H1?

November 1st, 2005, 06:08 PM	#1
Shawn Alyasiri Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bloomington, IL Posts: 256	What is the Light Sensitivity and Lens Speed? Sorry if this was already covered - I tried doing a search and either couldn't find the information or the search utility was bombing out. Is the light sensitivity for the H1 reported anywhere? I'm assuming F8 @ 2000lux - similar to the Z1 or the HD100? Additionally, is the lens f/2.8 when zoomed in and in the f/1.6 range when wide (like the z1)? I'm downloading the test footage, but so far I've just seen images outside. I'd like to get a sense of it's low-light capability, and how it's looking with appropriate gain applied. I've been quite impressed with the Z1 in 60i and it's low-light capability. Thanks in advance, Shawn

November 2nd, 2005, 04:34 PM	#2
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	Well, When reading this please remember, I have not played very much with these kind of cameras.... But, I have been testing XL H1 pal version in SD mode a bit tonight and I would rate the sensitivity of the camera with basic settings (gain 0, shutter 1/50, everything else in factorysettings) somewhere around 250 ASA. The camera I have (only tonight) is a demoversion that they say it is about 90% or more like the one that will be forsale. This is just an opinion not a scientifical statement (LOL) but in general Canon XL H1 seems to be sensitive enough for my purposes and I like it. I used the exposuremeter for this estimation, the amount of the light at the center of greycard was about 23 FC / 26lux. My "correct" exposure was F:2.2. I have also been comparing it to Sony PD 150 P and I would say that Canon is a bit less sensitive than this old lady, roughly about half a stop. I made the whitebalance for both cameras and I was shooting a greycard with six other tones, three towards white and three towards black. I connected both cameras to FCP via firewire to see the teschart with the waveform monitor. There I could see that when the grey is at 50% XL-H1 F:stop is 2.2 and the same exposure(50% in grey) I get with Sony when the aperture is set to F:2.8. With this exposure the Sony seemed to have much more contrast, the "white" was about 100% and with Canon it was less than 90%. The "black" seemed to be blacker with sony, about 5% and with Canon the "black" was still over 10%. Both cameras were again in basic settings. So, in general it seems to me that Canon has much more latitude than this old, very nice Sony PD150P. So to estimate sensitivity is abit tricky... but like I said, my first impression of the Canon is in general very very good. The lense begins from wide F:1.6 and is between Z: 1 - 36. Then F: 1.8 between Z:37 - 65, F:2 between Z: 66 - 80,..... and at the tele end Z:100 it is F:3.5. Canon has this "Z" style to express focal lenghts. I hope this helps. __________________ Pekka

November 2nd, 2005, 10:46 PM	#4
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Pekka, I am very jealous! Can you add to your report to clear up an inconsistency between various sources? Does the H1's 20x lens stop down to F9 or F16? Thanks! __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

November 2nd, 2005, 11:52 PM	#5
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	Yes, with the focal lengths XL H1 has it's own scale from Z: 1 to 100. The other possibility is the bar where is a small cursor that gives an idea where the focal lenght is on the range. The smallest aperture is F: 9.5 through the lense, next to it is close. At the tele end the largest aperture is 3.4 not 3.5 like I had written earlier. __________________ Pekka

November 3rd, 2005, 09:08 PM	#6
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Thanks! I'm only guessing, but perhaps Canon had to make some compromises to ensure the lens met the resolution requirements for HD. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

November 2nd, 2005, 08:53 PM	#3
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Good information, but you lost me on the Z thing. It doesn't give focal length in millimeters?

November 4th, 2005, 02:20 AM	#7
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	You're welcome, I think somebody was writing very well about this smallest aperture matter under the thread about Kaku's clips part two. In general, "all the lenses" start to loose the sharpness if the aperture is smaller than 11. In bigger formats it does not matter so much, it depends ofcourse how critical one is. From outside the zoomlense looks alike the XL-2 zoom. Canon says that it has better coatings, the closest focusing distance is at the tele end seemed to be 1 meter and at the wide end it was 0.1 m, propably it even closer. The distance number were visible in the viewfinder(from the menu you can choose whether you want it feets/meters). I was also measuring the distances with a measuringtape and the distance readings seemed to be very accurate but I did not test it with longer distances.. Anyway, to me these are very important features. The other new thing, when comparing to XL-2 was/is backfocus adjustment that has three possibilities. This function is operated from the menu and the camera does it "automatically" or "manually", (I guess one can also cheat the camera in that setting, that could be useful if one wants to use a 35mm DOF adapter). The third possibility is default. Autofocus is a bit slow, specially in 25F mode, it is even said in the manual. The lense is a bit senseless when focusing manually like all these kind of videolenses but I think it is very good in it's own cathegory. The good thing is that it does not "breathe" when focused. At the wide end the focusing from infinity to macro is very short movement, at the tele end it seemed to be longer. Strange (I realise now), because to my opinion the zoom hold the focus very well when zoomed from wide to tele. I looked also "the checkboard test chart" with my monitor and it seemed like the chromatic aberration was there but to my opinion very slightly, just like somebody was writing under Kaku's clip's thread. Well, I was testing alone and in late hours and with my limited equipment resources so these really are more opinions than facts... __________________ Pekka

November 4th, 2005, 02:40 AM	#8
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	Unfortunally it seems that I cannot edit my posts... but I want to say two more things. The chromatic aberration was very very small to my opinion, I could rather feel it than see it from my 14" monitor (but I could also see it). I've seen something much worse.... The manual said about the autofocus that it is slowlier when camera is in 25F mode. Cheers __________________ Pekka

November 4th, 2005, 02:47 AM	#9
Tony Davies-Patrick Trustee Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Worldwide Posts: 1,589	Thank you for your giving us your thoughts following your short time with the camera, Pekka. Two unanswered questions I put forward in Kaku's thread that you may be able to answer: Do you have any information about Canon bringing out a wide-angle lens to fit the H1? I have heard that Canon can modify the NTSC version so that it can be used ,with the flick of a switch, for both Pal and NTSC - is this true? One last question: What is your honest opinion on the image quality of the H1, when compared to its non HD versions such as the XL1s and XL2? (...a slight improvement, or vast improvement?). __________________ www.WILDCARP.com www.NIKON.me.uk

November 4th, 2005, 03:34 AM	#10
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	Tony, I have no idea what Canon is planning... but I wish they will continue their path and that new lense possibilities for new cameras will come. I hope they will stay in the business... I have also two other wishes for this XL-H1 that I hope they will do for it before selling it. First wish: shutter speed 1/40 or variable shutterspeed between 1/25 - 1/50. Second wish: The viewfinder's flipmode should be available also with Canon's own stocklense. Maybe even these "small" wishes are too difficult to do at this moment. I think it is writtten in many places that one camera can be upgraded to have both NTSC and PAL modes. If I remember right this upgrading was quite cheap to my opinion... What is my personal opinion about XL H1? Well, First, I like Canon's XL cameras...(I like many other cameras aswell but I love cameras that are running and under my control) I have seen XL-2 and XL-H1 side by side about an half an hour and I was able to record few shots with both cameras in miniDV mode. I feel that H1 is more light sensitive and it has few other very important features (most of them is said above) for me that I believe are worth of paying even when used in SD reality. I hope you got some new information. __________________ Pekka

November 4th, 2005, 03:40 AM	#11
Tony Davies-Patrick Trustee Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Worldwide Posts: 1,589	Thank you Pekka. __________________ www.WILDCARP.com www.NIKON.me.uk

November 7th, 2005, 02:45 PM	#12
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	Hi once more, after studying my few shots side by side between XL-2 and XL H1 that I did previously (in SD mode again with zero settings), I've noticed that yes, the XL H1 is more sensitive than XL-2 but what makes XL H1 totally different is how wide it's exposure latitude is with basic settings. Today I happen to have XL-2 in front of me so few more opinions. The new thing in XL H1is that one can adjust it's colors, gain etc. settings so much more. With XL-2 I have a feeling that one can "only" finetune the colours. If one wants forexample "The Amelie look", with XL H1 it can be easily done already in the camera (if one just can decide what the look is). The viewfinder is a bit better than in XL-2, but there are few things that help focusing essentially. One can turn the peaking on (only on or off), and for prefocusing "magnifying" possibility is very helpful too. The viewfinder can be also turned to B&W but ofcourse it does not become a hires viewfinder.... Ok, I confess, I am very impressed of XL H1 even thought it is "only" a videocamera. I think it is amazing, it will be very interesting reading when the official testwritings will come here to DVi ! Chris, can you give any estimation when somebody is writing seriously about Canon XL H1? __________________ Pekka