So what's the Family Truckster worth?

Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim

I've said it again and again- if all you do is online distribution the XL2 is just fine. You'll be able to wait longer than most of us for HD production.

That's good to know. Sorry, I hadn't seen that statement.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Derek West

That's good to know. Sorry, I hadn't seen that statement.

Well, maybe I am guity of not having been very clear. I ain't going back and reading all that to find out though.<grin>

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Derek West

OK, lets take one of your car dealership clients as an example:

What 2003 footage that you shot on the XL1 two years ago are you re-using in the 2005 commercial that you are doing for them today?

I am sorry if I implied that I have dealership clients I don't. It is a market I am trying to get into though so I've been studying it.

I'll give you an example though of how dealers reuse old footage. Bear with me...

Open on beauty of a car driving with titles. This shot will be reused until that body type is not being produced, between two and up to FIVE years.

A stock shot of the dealer lot with the owner talking about service etc. You know the part where the dealer rolls out his kids or sales staff. This is a shot I'd take. That will be reused until the cars in the shot are no longer produced or the dealer changes locations- again two to five years.

Then you have special promotions, normally VO with titles. Sometimes the background will be beauty shots of the vehicle under discussion, these beauty shots are usually manufacturer supplied. These get redone twice a year on average per model line advertised. I'd be redoing the VO and the titles.

Its very little work and pay rates are good from what I can find, because dealers have the best type of spending money- other people's. Still this year or next you will need to have in house HD acquisition and post capability.

HDV acquisition from any 3CCD camera would be fine, so the Z1 would be completely suitable for this work.

Hopefully someone here actually does car dealer commercials and can show some samples.

Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim

Well, maybe I am guity of not having been very clear. I ain't going back and reading all that to find out though.<grin>

LOL! and roger on that.

[Michael Wisniewski]

Alexander,

What would you choose if you were headed solely for DVD?

[Mike Marriage]

Originally Posted by Derek West

That's good. Repeat business is always the best. Even though you having the original footage that they want to update is one reason they called, they probably phoned you because they liked the results you gave them a year ago. What did you shoot it with?

and when you say update -

Update, as in adding or editing graphics?
Upadate, as in shooting new footage?
Or both?
If shooting new footage:
What are you going to shoot it with?
Is that the same camera you used to shoot the original?

I didn't actually shoot the video originally, but they got fed up with the company who did. I was doing some DVD authoring for them, so they asked me to update the video.

However, this is a perfect demonstration of one of the points that is being made: The original was shoot 4:3 on DVCAM, but they want to display it on a 42" 16:9 plasma. IMO the first company did a poor job in fufilling the customers needs. I may even suggest re-shooting the whole thing on HD for presentation off a HD-DVD from laptop and onto the screen as this is what the job really calls for. Had it been shot on HD in the first place it would have saved money. I think they choee not to because at the time they were using a smaller 4:3 display monitor.

Personally I always try to warn customers about changing technology so that they can decide whether it is worth future proofing their work. That way when the technology does arrive at least I can say I told them so, and they don't feel neglected by having info withheld from them.

We are the professionals and are their to serve the clients very best needs, we also must bear in mind that they may not be aware of these needs.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Michael Wisniewski

Alexander,

What would you choose if you were headed solely for DVD?

Big question. I think your DVD results look very different depending on how you originate.

I used to argue that DV could outperform DVD in every regard and thus was a suitable acquisition format for almost any project. That is wrong.

DV25 is a suitable codec but the cameras usually fail to live up to the codec. Only the best DVCPRO and DVCAM cameras can push the codec's edges, and most of those are DVCPRO 50 cameras in DV25 mode anyway. Why you would do that I have no idea.

You need a 4:2:2 format minimum to max out DVD. DV still can deliver good results, but not the best possible. I think you can composite DV better than HDV, but not nearly as well as DVCPRO 50.

Also there are some minor issues with color levels and such. New software handles DV better than before, but still a 4:2:2 format looks better.

HD formats can look better than SD formats for DVD, but I think that has more to do with the fact that they are treated better during production and until now have had uniformly more color space.

A lot of Hollywood is 4:4:4 from 35mm or HD acquisition. I don't think DVD can handle more than 4:2:2, but a little headroom is handy if you want to deliver top notch results.

Now all that said, I use my XL-1 most often for DVD, and most of the time it looks fine.

The bigger issues tend to be how you light and whatnot. I can see a huge difference in my productions where I had time and resources for proper acquisition vs. some sort of run and gun stuff.

With run and gun DV and HDV can look pretty bad compared to 4:2:2 SD or HD. It takes only a little bit of production care and technique to bring them much closer together.

Also, try and remember that these cheap video cameras we all have have very limited dynamic range. DVD doesn't "like" when you over or underexpose, so keep it tight within 5 stops, and if that fails color correct your output.

That last bit is a huge difference in what we can manage vs. Hollywood. They have ~11 stops dynamic range on HD or 35. You can match that look or at least come close even in DV but you have to be a freaking master of light.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

I think if you only go for DVD you even don't need HD or HDV. I think SD just does fine. I think an XL2 suffices.
People forget that these cams (XL1, XL2, PD170, DVX100,...) still shoot great video.
Heck, 28 days later was shot on the XL1 and was projected and became a little hit!
I know that movie is always the example, but it just a prime example of how great SD can look!
Okay they had a professional crew and spent millions in postproduction, but they knew how to light!

OK,

So I'm getting 4 gig of RAM installed at the Apple Store right now.

Low and behold, they've got a Sony FX1 here.

Low and behold, they had some mini DV's for sale.

So I bought them and put one in the Sony FX1. I'm recording footage right now, so I can take it home, load it up into FCP and see what and see what I think.

I'm just recording in auto mode, and it looks like its in 1080i mode.

I guess the only issue is, can I put the miniDV that I take out of this FX1 into my XL2 and capture it from there without it causing my XL2 any problems down the road?

[Chris Hurd]

It was a brand new tape, right? Probably no worries at all, but if you have a head cleaning cassette handy then you might run it for about five seconds in your XL2 after capturing that tape.

Thanks Chris,

Yep. Brand new tape.

I thought about it some while driving home and I gave my parents one of my old Sony Camcorders. It's about 5 years old but it's miniDV and has a FireWire in/out so I think I'll try to capture the 15 minutes I taped with it on Sunday (just to be on the safe side).

I'm sure you are right though, just hate to take an unnecessary risk even if it's just a .000000001 chance.

I'm looking forward to it though. Especially with my 6 GIG of RAM! My neighborhood's lights are going to flicker!!!

- - - - - - - -

Just a quick side note here - this forum is excellent. Thanks for running for us Chris.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Derek West

I guess the only issue is, can I put the miniDV that I take out of this FX1 into my XL2 and capture it from there without it causing my XL2 any problems down the road?

It should play just fine if its any sort of DV.

I don't think the XL2 will play back HDV at all. So, if you are right and the FX was in 1080i mode, you won't get a useful picture.

Waiting to hear, but please when you capture check the clip info and see what resolution you used to record.

Just an update on this. I had given my parents an older Sony DV that I bought about 4 years ago. I thought I would try using it to do the capture, so I wouldn't have to risk any bad side effects with the XL2. I think the risk are minimal, but when faced with the risk vs. reward factor I often use - it was not worth the gamble.

So I tried the sony that I mentioned above and it did not work.

Although, thinking about it now, even if it did work:

I don't think it would have been fair on the FX1 for the following reasons:
-I've never shot with it
-I don't know how "jacked up" the settings could have been from about a million people messing with it.
-If you've ever been in an apple store, you know how bright (all white basically) they are, and I'm sure the footage would have been very bright and not properly balanced.
-I'm sure there are other reasons as well.

So, to sum it up - Best to everyone using HDV and to those who are going to acquire the new Canon H1. Keep on keepin' on. I'm looking forward to seeing the footage on-line.

[Kevin Shaw]

Wow, yet another thread questioning the viability of HDV recording and HD video delivery. I don't know if I would rush to pay $9K to replace a Canon XL2 with the XL-H1, but I'm blown away by the image quality difference between a $3K Sony FX1 and the Canon GL2 I bought last year for about $1800. My FX1 footage is clearly better in many ways even for SD delivery, and on an HDTV it's just plain jaw-dropping compared to the GL2. I haven't had time to upload many samples yet, but here's one downsampled to Windows Media at 720p resolution:

http://www.videomem.com/hdv/yosemite_720p.wmv

HDV is going to disrupt everything because any new videographer can drop $6K on two FX1s and $1500 on a dual-core editing setup, and deliver HD image quality that rocks for the same price any decent SD videographer is charging. (Assuming the content itself is worth watching.) Once proper HD DVD players start shipping all heck is going to break loose, because anyone paying good money for professional video projects may start wondering why they shouldn't get it done in HD. Plus the fact that most HDTVs being sold are widescreen and most SD cameras are primarily 4x3 will be a problem for many videographers -- XL2 owners can get by a little longer delivering widescreen SD video. But at some point any customer with real money is going to start asking for HD recording options, even if they're not quite sure whether they really need it.

Draw your own conclusions based on sensible business planning, but SD video is on its way out.