So Chris, how does 24f actually look?

Werner Wesp · September 15th, 2005, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

Barry's right--we should also do it with the JVC.

heath

The JVC IS genuine 24p also. Untill the HVX (it seems), it's the only true progressive camcorder in the bunch.

Mike Marriage · September 15th, 2005, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

I don't know if the HVX200 will do 1080p. I'm not sure how many will do that. Unless it's like you say, 1080p in some sort of interlaced delivery.

The HVX will shoot true 1080p but due to the DVCPRO HD codec it uses, will record it using a 1080i stream. It is the same method as used on the DVX100 and XL2, which record their progressive footage using a 50i/60i DV stream.

Chris, I don't know what you have been able to see so far, but what is your impression of the camera's general picture quality?

Heath McKnight · September 15th, 2005, 07:36 AM

Check out my brief thoughts on the JVC here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=50903

Reply to those thoughts on that thread.

heath

Brian Petersen · September 15th, 2005, 12:56 PM

The DVX100 calls itself 24p and they put progressive material in an interlaced format then you use pulldown to acheive the 24p, if that is what Canon is doing then why not call it 24p. Some people are saying it's a "legal" thing, but does that mean that Panasonic is screwed legally for calling it's DVX100 a 24p camera. It seems there has to be something different going on.

Heath McKnight · September 15th, 2005, 01:04 PM

I heard a rumor someone owned the trademark to 24p and was to receive money for that right. But I think that's been debunked.

Though, as we all know with HDV, to use the logo, you gotta pay some money:

http://www.hdv-info.org/

heath

Mike Marriage · September 15th, 2005, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Petersen

The DVX100 calls itself 24p and they put progressive material in an interlaced format then you use pulldown to acheive the 24p, if that is what Canon is doing then why not call it 24p. Some people are saying it's a "legal" thing, but does that mean that Panasonic is screwed legally for calling it's DVX100 a 24p camera. It seems there has to be something different going on.

It is different - the Canon uses a interlaced CCD and interlaced video stream to carry the footage, the DVX uses a progressive CCD and that progressive footage is only carried in an interlaced stream.

Canon has come up with a way to create a progressive effect using interlaced CCDs. Sony merely de-interlaces the interlaced footage to make CineFrame mode, loosing resolution. Apparently the Canon manages to maintain the full 1080, maybe by scanning both fields at once..??

Thomas Smet · September 15th, 2005, 01:16 PM

kind of think of it as when you watch progressive video on your TV. The TV is still an interlaced device and it displays first the even lines and then the odd lines. Your video looks like and is progressive.

I do not know this 100% but think of the Canon as the opposite. You have an interlaced device but each of those fields is taken at the same time but still alternated. I don't know how they do it. This would give you a full 1440x1080 pixels at one moment in time but a different way of getting to that point. Maybe there are two processors that sample the odd fields and the even fields at the exact same time.

A. J. deLange · September 15th, 2005, 01:38 PM

I expect it's going to be something like the Frame mode on the XL1s. Canon's press release talks about the individual frames in 24F as opposed to the "exceptional resolution" in 60i impling that there is a resolution loss. I can't remember (or find) anything on how frame mode worked in the XL1s but I do recall that it involved averaging of adjacent lines which gave better SNR but cost somewhat in resolution. These musings are just that: musings.

Mike Marriage · September 15th, 2005, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. J. deLange

I expect it's going to be something like the Frame mode on the XL1s. Canon's press release talks about the individual frames in 24F as opposed to the "exceptional resolution" in 60i impling that there is a resolution loss. I can't remember (or find) anything on how frame mode worked in the XL1s but I do recall that it involved averaging of adjacent lines which gave better SNR but cost somewhat in resolution. These musings are just that: musings.

If it is like FRAME mode, that is a back step for them... although I personally liked frame mode, it is now consider limited.

Heath McKnight · September 15th, 2005, 01:51 PM

Go to:

www.usa.canon.com

And click on Consumer, Digital Camcorders, then the camera. That may answer some questions.

heath

Thomas Smet · September 15th, 2005, 02:07 PM

Even "if" it was frame mode (which I doubt it is) that might still be better than 720p.

Somebody mentioned that frame mode on the XL1 had about 360 lines compared to 480 instead of only 240 from one field. Based on that ratio "if" the XLH! used frame mode we should get about 810 lines instead of only 540 from the Z1 and 720 from the HD100. The only other camera that might beat that is the HVX200 but we do not yet know how they will get 1080p. It may be interpolated from 720p chips so it may not be any better than 810 lines from frame movie mode.

Again this is a what if it is situation.

Heath McKnight · September 15th, 2005, 02:18 PM

I don't think it's like Frame Mode. Also, check this out:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...hlight=28+days

heath

Charles Wood · September 15th, 2005, 11:52 PM

A little confusion seems to be being introduced to this question of 24P. Lets set aside the naming of names point initially: The key issue is that if the data on the CCD is clocked at the same moment AT 24 FPS but then read out off the block as two interlaced fields, we really don't care about how it is read do we? The key issue is that the image capture is at one moment in time and at 24Hz

The important issue then becomes do they then recombine the two fileds to form a FRAME at 24 Hz BEFORE any image processing. They would be crazy not to, but maybe there are processing limitations on this (like no actual full frame store anywhere). What happens to get the data into the HDV transport stream seems irrelavant then, provided the field sequence is marked, and recoverable.

Then back to the naming of names: 24P implies the data can be read off the block progressively. 24F implies the data can be CAPTURED at 24Hz but is read as FIELDS. So there is a difference, and maybe it would affect noise patterns or something, but it probably is simply a technical difference, not one that affects the actual image we finally get to use.

Or is this too logical?

Someone say yes Charles...this is what we do....

Michael Wisniewski · September 16th, 2005, 12:28 AM

Thank you Mr. Spock, that is very logical.

Charles Papert · September 16th, 2005, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

I heard a rumor someone owned the trademark to 24p and was to receive money for that right. But I think that's been debunked.

http://www.filmlook.com/

September 15th, 2005, 07:36 AM	#33
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Check out my brief thoughts on the JVC here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=50903 Reply to those thoughts on that thread. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

September 15th, 2005, 01:04 PM	#35
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I heard a rumor someone owned the trademark to 24p and was to receive money for that right. But I think that's been debunked. Though, as we all know with HDV, to use the logo, you gotta pay some money: http://www.hdv-info.org/ heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

September 15th, 2005, 01:51 PM	#40
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Go to: www.usa.canon.com And click on Consumer, Digital Camcorders, then the camera. That may answer some questions. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

September 15th, 2005, 02:18 PM	#42
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I don't think it's like Frame Mode. Also, check this out: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...hlight=28+days heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

September 15th, 2005, 11:52 PM	#43
Charles Wood Tourist Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Worthing, UK Posts: 3	24f A little confusion seems to be being introduced to this question of 24P. Lets set aside the naming of names point initially: The key issue is that if the data on the CCD is clocked at the same moment AT 24 FPS but then read out off the block as two interlaced fields, we really don't care about how it is read do we? The key issue is that the image capture is at one moment in time and at 24Hz The important issue then becomes do they then recombine the two fileds to form a FRAME at 24 Hz BEFORE any image processing. They would be crazy not to, but maybe there are processing limitations on this (like no actual full frame store anywhere). What happens to get the data into the HDV transport stream seems irrelavant then, provided the field sequence is marked, and recoverable. Then back to the naming of names: 24P implies the data can be read off the block progressively. 24F implies the data can be CAPTURED at 24Hz but is read as FIELDS. So there is a difference, and maybe it would affect noise patterns or something, but it probably is simply a technical difference, not one that affects the actual image we finally get to use. Or is this too logical? Someone say yes Charles...this is what we do.... __________________ Salsatap

September 15th, 2005, 12:56 PM	#34
Brian Petersen Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 62	The DVX100 calls itself 24p and they put progressive material in an interlaced format then you use pulldown to acheive the 24p, if that is what Canon is doing then why not call it 24p. Some people are saying it's a "legal" thing, but does that mean that Panasonic is screwed legally for calling it's DVX100 a 24p camera. It seems there has to be something different going on.

September 15th, 2005, 01:16 PM	#37
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	kind of think of it as when you watch progressive video on your TV. The TV is still an interlaced device and it displays first the even lines and then the odd lines. Your video looks like and is progressive. I do not know this 100% but think of the Canon as the opposite. You have an interlaced device but each of those fields is taken at the same time but still alternated. I don't know how they do it. This would give you a full 1440x1080 pixels at one moment in time but a different way of getting to that point. Maybe there are two processors that sample the odd fields and the even fields at the exact same time.

September 15th, 2005, 01:38 PM	#38
A. J. deLange Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: McLean, VA United States Posts: 749	I expect it's going to be something like the Frame mode on the XL1s. Canon's press release talks about the individual frames in 24F as opposed to the "exceptional resolution" in 60i impling that there is a resolution loss. I can't remember (or find) anything on how frame mode worked in the XL1s but I do recall that it involved averaging of adjacent lines which gave better SNR but cost somewhat in resolution. These musings are just that: musings.

September 15th, 2005, 02:07 PM	#41
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Even "if" it was frame mode (which I doubt it is) that might still be better than 720p. Somebody mentioned that frame mode on the XL1 had about 360 lines compared to 480 instead of only 240 from one field. Based on that ratio "if" the XLH! used frame mode we should get about 810 lines instead of only 540 from the Z1 and 720 from the HD100. The only other camera that might beat that is the HVX200 but we do not yet know how they will get 1080p. It may be interpolated from 720p chips so it may not be any better than 810 lines from frame movie mode. Again this is a what if it is situation.

September 16th, 2005, 12:28 AM	#44
Michael Wisniewski Wrangler Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Makati, Metro Manila Posts: 2,706 Images: 32	Thank you Mr. Spock, that is very logical. __________________ "Ultimately, the most extraordinary thing, in a frame, is a human being." - Martin Scorsese