New XL HDV shown at IBC

Eric Brown · September 10th, 2005, 10:46 AM

Decoy camera hopefully.
Kind of like what Chevy would do back in the seventies with some of their emissions strangulated vehicles. Doll the car up in flat black paint trim and stripes and re-package it as a "GT" with no other drastic improvements.
I'm sure Canon knows better than this.
Design issues aside, they really need to drop a high-yield nuclear device at the announcement phase or the party may well be over.
I really want Canon to do this right as I'm sure everyone else does.
The 15th seems so far off...

Mikko Wilson · September 10th, 2005, 12:49 PM

I have no new information on this camera, as Canon wouldn't say anything, however I took some better quality pics of it that are up at www.camcorderinfo.com
There will be more pictures tommorow.

- Mikko

Jaime Valles · September 10th, 2005, 03:54 PM

Thanks for the link! Wow, I guess it's real. So, supposing they use something similar to JVC's ProHD that allows for 720/24p, does anyone else think this is another "too little, too late" debut for Canon? The only way they could make it stand out above the JVC is if they introduce HDV at 1080/24p. This would make it a step above the HD100, but still HDV so not as good as HVX200's 1080/24p DVCProHD. If it's only 720/24p HDV, I can't see it doing too well, unless they have something else up their sleeve.

Mikko Wilson · September 10th, 2005, 04:04 PM

They have potentially have a few things up their sleve:
First off is the fact that HDV is still cheap-long-format HD.. (consumers want cheap more than they want good. [VHS vs BETA]
then as they havent' released a ship date yet, there is always the possibilty (i'd almost bet the case) that they could ship before the HVX..
..and who knows what else it'll do.

- Mikko

Michael Maier · September 10th, 2005, 05:09 PM

Interesting news. But I have to agree I don't see this camera stilling JVC's thunder, unless it offers more. If it's just 720p 24,25 and 30, I don't think it will be much of a hit, unless Canon drops the price dramatically bellow the HD100. Just knowing Canon's products, this camera will most likely follow the XL series design very closely. The body seems to be identical apart of the color. That means no larger LCD display, no real iris ring and all the semi-professional menus and commands from the XL2. All against fully professional menus and features form the JVC. The HD100 just has a better and more professional form factor. This Canon HDV also seems to ship with a 20x OIS style of lens, where the JVC ships with a fully manual professional lens, with a real iris ring. You know, painting a camera full black doesn't make it professional.
Anyway, I think Canon is again, too late on the game and barely playing catch up. Since I really doubt this camera will have more professional features than the XL2 or will shoot 1080 24p or even 720p other than what the HD100 already does, if it shoots 24p at all, I don't see how Canon would beat JVC. The 24p feature is a JVC modification. So maybe this will shoot 1080i only?
Another question is, are they actually developing HD XL lenses or are they just using the XL2 SD lenses? That lens looks just like a 20x sprayed black. My guess is this will be nothing more than a HDV XL2. In this case, it will most likely not be competition for the more professional HD100. We will see how it develops.

Barry Green · September 10th, 2005, 05:34 PM

There is an HDV door that JVC left wide open for Canon to come in and exceed them with: 1080/24p. If they implement 1080/60i HDV, and then also put 24P in (using the same technique as putting 24P within a DV 60i stream) then the Canon would have two huge selling points against the JVC: 1080/24p instead of 720/24p, and 1080/60i (something the HD100 doesn't have an answer for).

As for lenses, seeing as they will need new lenses anyway (to support HD resolution) this is Canon's chance to ditch the proprietary lens mount and instead go with a standard mount. Then the HD100 and the Canon could actually interchange lenses, too!

I guess it remains to be seen what Canon will actually do; I'm just pointing out a couple of things they could do which would give them selling points against the other HDV product on the market.

Lars Steenhoff · September 10th, 2005, 05:45 PM

Haha that was a fun read.
sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I was at IBC
you want more pictures? here they are:

http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/browseimages.php?c=27

Michael Maier · September 10th, 2005, 05:58 PM

Yeah Barry, as I said, if they offer more than the HD100, they have huges chances to beat it. 1080 24p would be great. Specially if the CCDs were actually 1920x1080. But that would be really the only thing they could do to outdo JVC. Because the JVC will most likely still be more professional oriented.
I somehat doubt Canon would let go on their XL mount though.
But deep down in my heart, I'm 90% sure this will basically be a XL2 in HDV, with maybe 720 24p/30p and nothing else. But I hope I'm wrong.

Barry Green · September 10th, 2005, 06:05 PM

Well, if you believe camcorderinfo.com's report, prepare for a *huge* disappointment. I just saw that they've revised their front-page story. They claim that they have an exclusive report, from a "source close to Canon", who says that the camera will be 1080i-only. They claim that they specifically asked about 24P, and the Canon source said "no." They claim he said it would have a 24p-like feature (which sounds an awful lot like CineFrame 24) but that it would *not* have 24P. And it wouldn't have 720p either; it'd be 1080i-only.

And it'll be $10,000 to $12,000.

I frankly don't believe it. Canon knows full well how to make 24P within an interlaced data stream (480/24p carried within a DV 60i data stream, as implemented on the XL2) and they know very well how much that feature is desired. I can't comprehend how they would produce this camera and leave out that feature. So I refuse to believe it, until I see Canon's official press release.

Michael Maier · September 10th, 2005, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

And it'll be $10,000 to $12,000...

$12,000? Who in their right minds would buy a HDV 1080i camera for this price with a camera like the HVX200 selling for under 10k with 2 P2 cards?
It sounds like bogus from camcorderinfo. But even if it cost the same as the XL2 and is 1080i only, it will flop.
Honestly, even if it would do 1080 24p, it would still be the question of the build quality, LCD screen, stock full manual lens, professional features and professional menu where the HD100 would have the edge. So, I really don't see how this camera could be a full threat to the HD100. Unless Canon totally outdo themselves and release a camera with real professional menus on the level of the HD100, professional build quality, offer a manual lens package for the same price as the OIS package, develops better HD glass than the stock 16x fuji, have it shooting 1080 24p and 720p with all frame rates the HD100 does. Then, it would be a huge hit. But the chances for this are very slim. But then again, you never know. They seem to be desperate for releasing a new camera only a short year after the XL2 came out. So, they might really have something worthy up their sleeves. I just feel sorry for those who just bought a XL2. I almost bought one last month. You, Charles and Nate saved me when you released that HD100+Mini35 test. That completely changed my view on HDV which was bad based on the Z1/FX1. Then I decided to check the HD100 and now that's what I'm buying, unless the new Canon does all I said above. But I doubt it. Specially if this camera is a repacked Z1 with interchangeable lens.
Anyway, thanks for saving me guys !

Philip Williams · September 10th, 2005, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

<snip> but that it would *not* have 24P. And it wouldn't have 720p either; it'd be 1080i-only.

And it'll be $10,000 to $12,000.

I frankly don't believe it. Canon knows full well how to make 24P within an interlaced data stream (480/24p carried within a DV 60i data stream, as implemented on the XL2) and they know very well how much that feature is desired. I can't comprehend how they would produce this camera and leave out that feature. So I refuse to believe it, until I see Canon's official press release.

I just read that too and have serious doubts about some of those specs. I don't think it takes a genius to figure that dropping a 10-12K HDV 1080i camcorder into the current market would make a thud louder than a refurbished circuit city DIVX player. Basically we'd be looking at a Z1 with a 5-7K premium for interchangeable lenses. Granted, I'm at the bottom of the food chain with my Optura 30 so I can't speak for the pros, but I'm thinking "nope".

Even if they do 24P in the 1080i stream (which I believe they will), that still makes this a pricey proposition. I think even at $8,000 with 1080 24P this thing wouldn't be competitive. I mean, that's the price of the HVX200 with the newly anounced Firestore. Oh sure, the Canon can change lenses, but that blows the budget WAY up. And even then, you're still left with what is arguably a video format that really doesn't compare too favoribly with Panasonic's.

I'm just not sure who this is targeted at. If it MSRPs at 7K with 1080 24P it might steal some thunder from JVC, certainly. But no 24P and/or a 10K+ price and I just have to wonder. Hmm.. maybe Canon is really going out of their way to keep the XL2 owners happy? If that's the case then Canon is about to learn an important lesson: sometimes you have to cut your losses.

Anyway, can't wait to see the final specs and prices! Maybe they'll still pull a fast one, but at this point I'm thinking the HVX is the big news in HD this year and its not looking like anyone is going to steal Panasonic's thunder.

Philip Williams
www.philipwilliams.com (yeah, site's down)

Eric Brown · September 10th, 2005, 07:14 PM

Why all the posts about feeling sorry for XL2 users about this new camera coming out so soon after the release of the XL2?
There's always something bigger and better around the corner. If the new camera is offering something I really want and can use then I'll simply cut my losses and sell the XL2 and just deal with it.
If its not that much of an improvement, I won't care and keep the XL2.
It called life, you deal with it.

James Rhodes · September 10th, 2005, 09:34 PM

I love my XL2 and I loved my XL1, but I havve to say being a Canon customer sucks from my perspective. Not only am I a Canon owner but I also sell cameras for a living right now. I put alot of money into my XL2 package as a rental " Digital Cinema Package " with alot of accessories in cluding Cinetech Follow focus and Petroff mattebox, wireless mics, the whole 9 yards...

I got a total of 4 months of rentals out of it before the FX1 and Z1U completely stole its thunder out here in the LA market. Every little TV station and start up production has gone with a Z1U. And they for the most part have regretted the decision, from what I hear from shooter here in LA. I even had to use one for a DVD featurette coming out on the Crash Special Edition DVD ( yes I know, wtf a special edition for Crash ? ). And I thought it was a thrown together concept camera to combat the XL2 because Canon went with their own tape transports on the XL2, thus stiffing Sony.

All I can say to Canon being an owner and seller of thier product is.., There better be a damn upgrade path for a camera thats only been out one year. Panasonic is straightforward with thier customers, they let them know what was going to happen so that thier customer could prepare for the transition. Now everyone has their cards on the table and Canon is still being tightlipped, its rediculous and frankly disloyal to the customers who keep wait and pay for their catch up game. The XL2 Late is absolutely right and it has tarnished the image of Canon in my eyes. I hope that keeping my XL2 until the offical Canon HDV annoucement will not be a bad decision. If it turns out that it is, I will turn my back on Canon and boycott any sales coming through my door and switch them over to Panasonic, which wont be hard.

Please Canon as a loyal a devout customer, don't screw the people who wated soooooo long for the XL2 and are now nervous about what future lies with thier camera. If it will even be worth it, anyone tried to sell SD gear lately ? not an easy thing these days.

Just my 2 but I know some of your feel what I have to say.

James Rhodes signing off

Michael Maier · September 10th, 2005, 11:14 PM

I feel you James. I'm so glad I didn't buy a XL2 last month. I would be really mad right now. I almost got one. I went to the store, tested it and all. I was saved by the gong. I'm glad I waited.

Matt Davis · September 11th, 2005, 02:15 AM

Somebody wanted full undoctored images of the Canon, complete with the info on how it was taken, to prove it wasn't photoshoped (how's that for the verbification of nouns).

I take no pride in the quality of these snaps, but its what somebody asked for. BTW, the other image is of a Century Optics 180 degree wide angle adaptor for the Z1 (there's a 120 as well).

http://www.gpjco.tv/ibc

FWIW, there was some real HDX200 footage on the Apple stand (demonistrating P2 integration with FCP). It was from a prototype and therefore was no reflection on the final image quality (thankfully).

The Canon here is obviously a fake. The buttons match up identically with the XL2 that was 3 feet from this box. I guess that Canon had to do SOMETHING what with attending the show that's basically the European NAB, as to not announce anything here, then do it at the Canon event in NY would seem a bit of a snub to the European markets. :-)

IMHO...

September 10th, 2005, 12:49 PM	#47
Mikko Wilson Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Juneau, Alaska, USA Posts: 624	Pictures at camcorderinfo.com I have no new information on this camera, as Canon wouldn't say anything, however I took some better quality pics of it that are up at www.camcorderinfo.com There will be more pictures tommorow. - Mikko __________________ Mikko Wilson - Steadicam Owner / Operator - Juneau, Alaska, USA +1 (907) 321-8387 - mikkowilson@hotmail.com - www.mikkowilson.com

September 10th, 2005, 04:04 PM	#49
Mikko Wilson Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Juneau, Alaska, USA Posts: 624	They have potentially have a few things up their sleve: First off is the fact that HDV is still cheap-long-format HD.. (consumers want cheap more than they want good. [VHS vs BETA] then as they havent' released a ship date yet, there is always the possibilty (i'd almost bet the case) that they could ship before the HVX.. ..and who knows what else it'll do. - Mikko __________________ Mikko Wilson - Steadicam Owner / Operator - Juneau, Alaska, USA +1 (907) 321-8387 - mikkowilson@hotmail.com - www.mikkowilson.com

September 10th, 2005, 05:45 PM	#52
Lars Steenhoff Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 30 Images: 24	Update with pictures Haha that was a fun read. sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I was at IBC you want more pictures? here they are: http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/browseimages.php?c=27

September 10th, 2005, 07:14 PM	#57
Eric Brown Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 427	Feel sorry for no one Why all the posts about feeling sorry for XL2 users about this new camera coming out so soon after the release of the XL2? There's always something bigger and better around the corner. If the new camera is offering something I really want and can use then I'll simply cut my losses and sell the XL2 and just deal with it. If its not that much of an improvement, I won't care and keep the XL2. It called life, you deal with it.

September 10th, 2005, 09:34 PM	#58
James Rhodes Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 49	This is what I have to say I love my XL2 and I loved my XL1, but I havve to say being a Canon customer sucks from my perspective. Not only am I a Canon owner but I also sell cameras for a living right now. I put alot of money into my XL2 package as a rental " Digital Cinema Package " with alot of accessories in cluding Cinetech Follow focus and Petroff mattebox, wireless mics, the whole 9 yards... I got a total of 4 months of rentals out of it before the FX1 and Z1U completely stole its thunder out here in the LA market. Every little TV station and start up production has gone with a Z1U. And they for the most part have regretted the decision, from what I hear from shooter here in LA. I even had to use one for a DVD featurette coming out on the Crash Special Edition DVD ( yes I know, wtf a special edition for Crash ? ). And I thought it was a thrown together concept camera to combat the XL2 because Canon went with their own tape transports on the XL2, thus stiffing Sony. All I can say to Canon being an owner and seller of thier product is.., There better be a damn upgrade path for a camera thats only been out one year. Panasonic is straightforward with thier customers, they let them know what was going to happen so that thier customer could prepare for the transition. Now everyone has their cards on the table and Canon is still being tightlipped, its rediculous and frankly disloyal to the customers who keep wait and pay for their catch up game. The XL2 Late is absolutely right and it has tarnished the image of Canon in my eyes. I hope that keeping my XL2 until the offical Canon HDV annoucement will not be a bad decision. If it turns out that it is, I will turn my back on Canon and boycott any sales coming through my door and switch them over to Panasonic, which wont be hard. Please Canon as a loyal a devout customer, don't screw the people who wated soooooo long for the XL2 and are now nervous about what future lies with thier camera. If it will even be worth it, anyone tried to sell SD gear lately ? not an easy thing these days. Just my 2 but I know some of your feel what I have to say. James Rhodes signing off __________________ To Shoot or to be shot, that is the question!

September 10th, 2005, 10:46 AM	#46
Eric Brown Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 427	Decoy camera hopefully. Kind of like what Chevy would do back in the seventies with some of their emissions strangulated vehicles. Doll the car up in flat black paint trim and stripes and re-package it as a "GT" with no other drastic improvements. I'm sure Canon knows better than this. Design issues aside, they really need to drop a high-yield nuclear device at the announcement phase or the party may well be over. I really want Canon to do this right as I'm sure everyone else does. The 15th seems so far off...

September 10th, 2005, 03:54 PM	#48
Jaime Valles Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New York City, NY Posts: 316	Thanks for the link! Wow, I guess it's real. So, supposing they use something similar to JVC's ProHD that allows for 720/24p, does anyone else think this is another "too little, too late" debut for Canon? The only way they could make it stand out above the JVC is if they introduce HDV at 1080/24p. This would make it a step above the HD100, but still HDV so not as good as HVX200's 1080/24p DVCProHD. If it's only 720/24p HDV, I can't see it doing too well, unless they have something else up their sleeve.

September 10th, 2005, 05:09 PM	#50
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	Interesting news. But I have to agree I don't see this camera stilling JVC's thunder, unless it offers more. If it's just 720p 24,25 and 30, I don't think it will be much of a hit, unless Canon drops the price dramatically bellow the HD100. Just knowing Canon's products, this camera will most likely follow the XL series design very closely. The body seems to be identical apart of the color. That means no larger LCD display, no real iris ring and all the semi-professional menus and commands from the XL2. All against fully professional menus and features form the JVC. The HD100 just has a better and more professional form factor. This Canon HDV also seems to ship with a 20x OIS style of lens, where the JVC ships with a fully manual professional lens, with a real iris ring. You know, painting a camera full black doesn't make it professional. Anyway, I think Canon is again, too late on the game and barely playing catch up. Since I really doubt this camera will have more professional features than the XL2 or will shoot 1080 24p or even 720p other than what the HD100 already does, if it shoots 24p at all, I don't see how Canon would beat JVC. The 24p feature is a JVC modification. So maybe this will shoot 1080i only? Another question is, are they actually developing HD XL lenses or are they just using the XL2 SD lenses? That lens looks just like a 20x sprayed black. My guess is this will be nothing more than a HDV XL2. In this case, it will most likely not be competition for the more professional HD100. We will see how it develops.

September 10th, 2005, 05:34 PM	#51
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	There is an HDV door that JVC left wide open for Canon to come in and exceed them with: 1080/24p. If they implement 1080/60i HDV, and then also put 24P in (using the same technique as putting 24P within a DV 60i stream) then the Canon would have two huge selling points against the JVC: 1080/24p instead of 720/24p, and 1080/60i (something the HD100 doesn't have an answer for). As for lenses, seeing as they will need new lenses anyway (to support HD resolution) this is Canon's chance to ditch the proprietary lens mount and instead go with a standard mount. Then the HD100 and the Canon could actually interchange lenses, too! I guess it remains to be seen what Canon will actually do; I'm just pointing out a couple of things they could do which would give them selling points against the other HDV product on the market.

September 10th, 2005, 05:58 PM	#53
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	Yeah Barry, as I said, if they offer more than the HD100, they have huges chances to beat it. 1080 24p would be great. Specially if the CCDs were actually 1920x1080. But that would be really the only thing they could do to outdo JVC. Because the JVC will most likely still be more professional oriented. I somehat doubt Canon would let go on their XL mount though. But deep down in my heart, I'm 90% sure this will basically be a XL2 in HDV, with maybe 720 24p/30p and nothing else. But I hope I'm wrong.

September 10th, 2005, 06:05 PM	#54
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Well, if you believe camcorderinfo.com's report, prepare for a huge disappointment. I just saw that they've revised their front-page story. They claim that they have an exclusive report, from a "source close to Canon", who says that the camera will be 1080i-only. They claim that they specifically asked about 24P, and the Canon source said "no." They claim he said it would have a 24p-like feature (which sounds an awful lot like CineFrame 24) but that it would not have 24P. And it wouldn't have 720p either; it'd be 1080i-only. And it'll be $10,000 to $12,000. I frankly don't believe it. Canon knows full well how to make 24P within an interlaced data stream (480/24p carried within a DV 60i data stream, as implemented on the XL2) and they know very well how much that feature is desired. I can't comprehend how they would produce this camera and leave out that feature. So I refuse to believe it, until I see Canon's official press release.

September 10th, 2005, 11:14 PM	#59
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	I feel you James. I'm so glad I didn't buy a XL2 last month. I would be really mad right now. I almost got one. I went to the store, tested it and all. I was saved by the gong. I'm glad I waited.

September 11th, 2005, 02:15 AM	#60
Matt Davis Trustee Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 1,562	More pix of the HDV Canon Somebody wanted full undoctored images of the Canon, complete with the info on how it was taken, to prove it wasn't photoshoped (how's that for the verbification of nouns). I take no pride in the quality of these snaps, but its what somebody asked for. BTW, the other image is of a Century Optics 180 degree wide angle adaptor for the Z1 (there's a 120 as well). http://www.gpjco.tv/ibc FWIW, there was some real HDX200 footage on the Apple stand (demonistrating P2 integration with FCP). It was from a prototype and therefore was no reflection on the final image quality (thankfully). The Canon here is obviously a fake. The buttons match up identically with the XL2 that was 3 feet from this box. I guess that Canon had to do SOMETHING what with attending the show that's basically the European NAB, as to not announce anything here, then do it at the Canon event in NY would seem a bit of a snub to the European markets. :-) IMHO...