New XL H1S and H1A -- questions and answers.

[Yi Fong Yu]

i agree w/Gabriel, innovating so quick is actually dangerous because it makes new Canon buyers leery of buying something that loses so much of its value the moment u get it (like new cars). it's actually good that users of XL1/2 series can still keep upgrading to new XL lenses while new HD XLH1 and its variants can tape the existing lenses (HD or not) and integrate it into their workflow.

and BTW canon DOES have progressive CMOS in their HV consumer series. they can probably plug that right into the XL series... except for the reason Gabriel and i just stated above.

[Mike Rinkunas]

Gabriel and Yi -

While you have good points about canon pulling the next best thing out of their hat with the XL-H2, my problem is that I'm going to be upgrading in the next 2-3 months - and with the XL gear & lenses I have, I cant use them in HD shooting, so that is a moot point in terms of trying to sell loyalty.

I love my XL1s's, however I can't keep waiting - holding out hope for what canon does next. While the XL-H2 may be the most amazing thing, I'm looking to buy now, so canon has just lost my money as whatever I purchase, I'm intending it to have a 3-4 year life span. So even if the XL-H2 comes out next year, it will be too late for me

Given the option of 1/2" sensor in the EX series, that is something that can't be ignored - i'm even considering jumping up to an HVX500 with its 2/3" sensors.

I am still kicking around JVC's 200/250 series, sony Z270 or even the XH series, If the larger sensor blocks aren't to my liking.

Sorry Canon - too little - too late
~Mike

[Mike Teutsch]

Originally Posted by Mike Rinkunas

Gabriel and Yi -

While you have good points about canon pulling the next best thing out of their hat with the XL-H2, my problem is that I'm going to be upgrading in the next 2-3 months - and with the XL gear & lenses I have, I cant use them in HD shooting, so that is a moot point in terms of trying to sell loyalty.

I love my XL1s's, however I can't keep waiting - holding out hope for what canon does next. While the XL-H2 may be the most amazing thing, I'm looking to buy now, so canon has just lost my money as whatever I purchase, I'm intending it to have a 3-4 year life span. So even if the XL-H2 comes out next year, it will be too late for me

Given the option of 1/2" sensor in the EX series, that is something that can't be ignored - i'm even considering jumping up to an HVX500 with its 2/3" sensors.

I am still kicking around JVC's 200/250 series, sony Z270 or even the XH series, If the larger sensor blocks aren't to my liking.

Sorry Canon - too little - too late
~Mike

Sorry Mike! But, if you can't shoot good video with the new XLH1A or the XLH1s basically you can't shoot good video. Love my XLH1 and have no need to upgrade at all. Never a problem, never a drop-out, no issues at all. If I want to slap a hard-drive on it I'll do it---actually did as I had a Firestore, but didn't really need it. My 3x lens and my 16x manual lens work just fine and all of the other accessories I had work fine too. I would really like a 6x, but it is not in my budget right now.

I think that Canon will make a big leap in the future, but for now everything is intermediate. Just look at the problem threads that are here for some on the new cameras. This business should not be a simple leap-frog game, it should be real innovation. RED and other are changing the whole game. If you jump into something right now, as far as new stuff, you will probably get very burned.

Patience patience.

Mike too

[Floris van Eck]

Canon is in a great position (so is Sony) as they have a photography business. Canon has (only Nikon is better) the best glass in the world and once they can make it work (a 35mm sensor with Canon EF mount) on hopefully the XL-H2 but more likely it takes a little bit longer they have a huge market. Other companies will always have to use someone else's mount. Canon not. I think that within 5 years from now photography and film/video fuse. If you look at the speeds of the high end DSLR camera's, they are at 11fps in like 6k resolution. So they probably can do 3k in 22fps already. That's where the market is going. And Canon is in a relaxed position. I do think that they are lagging behind a bit, and that they should bring prices down otherwise they will lose many customers in the coming years. I just hope the new updates mean that they are taking their time for a true successor.

[Mike Teutsch]

Originally Posted by Floris van Eck

I just hope the new updates mean that they are taking their time for a true successor.

I do too! My DSLR is a Nikon, my video equipment is Canon. I go with what I like, not a brand.

The future should be very interesting and there is no need to jump on any format or camera now just because it is new.

M

[Floris van Eck]

Only imagine Nikon doing a D4x camcorder. That would make me happy. I doubt they will ever do that, but hey, one can dream!

[Stuart Nimmo]

From the mists of Europe...

I was trying to pre-order an XLH1S with the firmware upgrade to switchable NTSC /PAL. I went to Creative Video in the UK, no mucking about and ready to pre-order. They told me a) that it was a simple firmware upgrade and always had been, (so what about the essential camera return to a Canon service center??? "However'" they said "Canon have stopped doing this PAL / NTSC firmware upgrade as basically people were getting it done to facilitate gray export...... Well, three printable thoughts sprang to mind:

1) Who says I want to gray export it? I simply have American and European clients.

2) If Canon can afford to sell it cheaper somewhere else, they can sell it cheaper to us all. Nobody is having an easy time in the business at the moment.

3) If Canon don't want to take my $500 for a simple firmware upgrade, then they've shot themselves in the foot because they've lost a sale. I'm not into buying 2 identical cameras with different firmware. Even worse they will have blown their brains out too because I don't like those tactics and won't trust them enough to buy another of their products. WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE ..... SONY?

As a Digital Betacam owner I fear that Sony blew their brains out some time ago. Did you see their marketing slogan "Nobody knows your business better than Sony" . Oh yes? Well I do for a start! The cheek!

Come on Canon, it's too late for that sort of crass nonsense. We know you can do it now ,,,,, so do it!

I think it's fine that this is a minor upgrade, Sony's gear is three generations out of date before it goes to market and who needs that?

[Mike Teutsch]

Instead of going to Creative Video in the UK, try going to Canon!

It's nice that your very first post on this forum is an attack on Canon. Go to the real source first, have Canon tell you that they won't do the up grade on your non-gray market camera then check back with this us here.

Many thanks----Mike

[Floris van Eck]

With the Scarlet being 2/3" and the XDCAM EX line 1/2", I think we can safely say that the Canon XL-H1/XL-A1/XL-H1S are the last 1/3" cameras. I hope they switch to 2/3" (APS-C would be even better).

[Dean Gough]

Just watched an interview with Bob Ott, vice president of Sony Professional. He was promoting the new EX3. One issue during the interview which surprised me was that the SDI out is hobbled with 4:2:0 output and not 422 as one would expect.

Why why why do that??? Totally lame if you ask me.

At least the good old H1 does 422.

[Stuart Nimmo]

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

Instead of going to Creative Video in the UK, try going to Canon! It's nice that your very first post on this forum is an attack on Canon. Go to the real source first, have Canon tell you that they won't do the up grade on your non-gray market camera then check back with this us here.

A fair point Mike, however I do not have an XL H1S gray or otherwise, I don't think anyone has yet. I just tried to pre-order one, I would be buying from a serious Canon dealer such as the much respected team at Creative Video. They don't (I believe) get involved in the seamier side of camera import, or in the equally seamy business of camera and lens dumping - and nor do I. We would prefer to be seen as legitimate customers rather than potential smugglers. My point was that Canon can stop the gray market any time they chose by presenting a level playing field, These dealers are at the front line of sales and like me they need to know what it is that they are going to be selling. I report what they reluctantly said - reluctantly because they know such a move by Canon will damage their sales.

It may be that you have Canon's ear? And can gather information (relevant to their European market) that we European broadcast cameramen can't. if so maybe you know someone at Canon who can clarify this matter? I do hope so, I for one would be eternally grateful. The bottom line is I am ready to buy - I would rather buy Canon than Sony but a bit of clarity would be very welcome.


Incidentally, a 2/3 chip camera head would be nice, but my guess is that it is very unlikely in this XL price range.


With regards to Sony's EX3 4:2:0 output, have you ever known Sony to put all their eggs into one low end basket? The put something in .... and they take something out. It was ever thus.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hamilton Nimmo

I was trying to pre-order an XLH1S with the firmware upgrade to switchable NTSC /PAL.

It has never been possible to order a Canon XL or XH series camcorder with the NTSC / PAL switchable upgrade. Dealers are strictly prohibited from offering this service. Canon makes it available only to customers. You need to order the camera, and upon receiving it, send it to your nearest Canon factory service center for the PAL / NTSC upgrade, for which you pay Canon directly.

You cannot purchase the upgrade through a dealer. You can only buy it directly from Canon. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it is now, for all Canon XL / XH series camcorder customers worldwide. Hope this helps,

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Originally Posted by Dean Gough

Just watched an interview with Bob Ott, vice president of Sony Professional. He was promoting the new EX3. One issue during the interview which surprised me was that the SDI out is hobbled with 4:2:0 output and not 422 as one would expect.

Why why why do that??? Totally lame if you ask me.

At least the good old H1 does 422.

In the Sony EX1-forum they asked the same question about the EX1, and got official response that it was 10bit real 4:2:2 that you get out of the EX1.

Best regards,

[Dean Gough]

Well this came straight from Bob Otts mouth, someone is misinformed, I'd hate to believe it was the VP of Sony Pro, stranger things have happened though, LOL

Check it out for yourself at ...

http://www.freshdv.com/

Its in the featured video list.

Personally I think he got it wrong based on other enquiries, next time Bob just sit there and look pretty, let a product management or techy answer the questions LOL

Originally Posted by Mathieu Ghekiere

In the Sony EX1-forum they asked the same question about the EX1, and got official response that it was 10bit real 4:2:2 that you get out of the EX1.

Best regards,

[Stuart Nimmo]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

It has never been possible to order a Canon XL or XH series camcorder with the NTSC / PAL switchable upgrade. Dealers are strictly prohibited from offering this service. Canon makes it available only to customers. You need to order the camera, and upon receiving it, send it to your nearest Canon factory service center for the PAL / NTSC upgrade, for which you pay Canon directly.

You cannot purchase the upgrade through a dealer. You can only buy it directly from Canon. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it is now, for all Canon XL / XH series camcorder customers worldwide. Hope this helps,

Thank you Chris, yes, I've been following this on this forum and elsewhere. I am aware of this back to Canon stipulation. However, I've also heard that folk have persuaded Canon to part with the firmware on the basis that a camera is not a great item to ship about.

I am prepared to order an XL H1S through a dealer or from the factory with this firmware conversion already installed; and made that clear. However it was at that point that I was told that Canon were no longer offering the NTSC/ PAL option at all. This may be incorrect information, I do hope so, if it is I do wish someone would nail it and correct it.

NTSC/ PAL is what I'm prepared to buy. We know that it exists or has existed, that it is a possible. But once out there on the market, to take it away would not be good news at all, I'm sure we all agree on that?

If you are able to find out the truth of this matter you will be doing a lot of people a big favour. I am told by another London dealer that Canon UK at least are remaining tight lipped about it. You'll be pleased to hear that a number of them are following this thread. I hope Canon is too.