New XL H1S and H1A -- questions and answers.

Floris van Eck · April 14th, 2008, 02:58 AM

$13,000. Really not worth the money. For that money I would rather buy a Panasonic HPX-500 or a Sony XDCAM (with the discs) and 2/3" lenses.

And do you really think this is it? RED will blow every other announcement away with the Scarlet today. Furthermore, Canon is always late but they will come with a worthy successor. Expect the next XL to fuse with 35mm lenses or maybe 2/3" lenses and of course it will be tapeless.

I really do not see why I would buy that Sony. It still feels clumsy (because that has not changed), the weight is all in front of your shoulder, so no advancement over the XL-H1 and the price... too expensive. You pay $4,000 for shoulder mount and some small updates.

No, no Sony EX1/EX3 for me.

Gabriel Berube · April 14th, 2008, 07:43 AM

Maybe Canon's waiting for the Scarlet everyone's so hyped about to announce the real XL-H1 successor? Seems like in current news, Scarlet blows away every other new designs announcements, like Sony's EX3. Maybe Canon wants the hype to die down a bit before it announces a worthy competitor?

Canon always proved to be a patient (albeit slow) cam designer. Look at what it's done with the XH-A1 model : they were last (or near last) to get onto the market, but they hit the spot right on. I don't think I ever heard any complaints about it, and even heard by a lot that it was the DVX100's successor.

I think time will tell if Canon really dropped that ball, who knows, we might be really surprised at what it got up its sleeves! :-)

Floris van Eck · April 14th, 2008, 08:00 AM

Gabriel, I could not agree more with you.

And maybe Scarlett is a cooperation between Canon and Red.

Yi Fong Yu · April 14th, 2008, 02:03 PM

canon's XL series has always been the last to market but the "best of its breed" when you compare apples to apples. happened on XL1, XL1s, XL2, XL H1, etc.

i don't doubt it'll happen on whatever future releases it is going to be, when you compare apples to apples.

Barry Gregg · April 14th, 2008, 07:01 PM

The Red Scarlet is going to cost $3,000 with a fixed 8x zoom. The Scarlet is a 3k camera that will record to CF chips and will accept many of the Red One accessories. I believe I have found my next small camera to complement the Red One or the new Red Epic 5k. I will keep my XL H1 until the Scarlet is available. Sorry Canon, I guess that my only Canon's will be still camera's from now on.

Michael Galvan · April 15th, 2008, 07:42 AM

Is it known whether the new full spec HD-SDI on the XL-H1s is now actual 10-bit? Or still 8-bit stuffed into 10?

Julian Frost · April 15th, 2008, 05:34 PM

No one in this thread has mentioned the life expectancy of solid state devices, which kinda surprises me. All current solid state memory devices have quite limited life expectancy as *every* write operation is destructive to the device. This is why the on-board logic purposely fragments files to spread the data "randomly" over the memory area. Read operations, however, are non-destructive. Since the solid state device will be storing huge amounts of data on a regular basis (much more so than regular USB thumb drive-type devices often used for storing documents), it is much more likely that the same pieces of memory will be written to much more frequently, and therefore are more likely to cause physical failures to the memory modules. Reading and writing to a hard drive is non-destructive, but of course you have mechanical issues with hard drives.

Charles Papert · April 15th, 2008, 10:13 PM

First I've heard of it--could you post links to a white paper or other reputable source on this? And/or quantify "quite limited life expectancy"?

Daniel Browning · April 15th, 2008, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Papert

First I've heard of it--could you post links to a white paper or other reputable source on this? And/or quantify "quite limited life expectancy"?

The reports I've read are 100,000 cycles.

Julian Frost · April 15th, 2008, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

The reports I've read are 100,000 cycles.

That's the same figure I've heard. While 100,000 sounds like a lot, when you consider that even with the on board logic randomizing the location of data on the memory chips, with the amount of data being stored on these devices, each memory location is going to get written to pretty frequently!

I heard a report of someone testing a CF card and killing it within one day when it was used as the Windows XP swap file and subjected to "normal use".

Here are some sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory#Memory_wear
"For high reliability data storage, however, it is not advisable to use flash memory that has been through a large number of programming cycles"

Another article said you don't need to worry about it...
http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html

Michael Galvan · April 16th, 2008, 07:39 AM

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...-H1A-34876.htm

Interesting comments in the interview they did with Canon ...

Apparantly, they take it as clues that Canon is actually developing thier own HD codec for their next gen solid state camera.

Pete Bauer · April 16th, 2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Galvan

Is it known whether the new full spec HD-SDI on the XL-H1s is now actual 10-bit? Or still 8-bit stuffed into 10?

While at the Canon booth yesterday, I asked and was told there is no change. It is still 8-bit with 2-zero bits. Going to 10 bit would require a whole new sensor block.

Yi Fong Yu · April 16th, 2008, 12:37 PM

which is a hint towards future developments? =D

Paul Cook · April 16th, 2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Bauer

While at the Canon booth yesterday, I asked and was told there is no change. It is still 8-bit with 2-zero bits. Going to 10 bit would require a whole new sensor block.

Canon are going to be eaten alive and rightly so. It happened to them in the Pro DSLR market with Nikon's D3 seeing a flood of once loyal canon pros flocking to the 'other side'. Now I can see the same thing happening in the HD arena.

Gabriel Berube · April 17th, 2008, 07:20 AM

Well, Paul, you need to remember something about the Canon vs Nikon war : About 2 years ago, when Canon released the first full-frame DSLR on the market, it was Nikon who lost a lot of its faithful users! Back before the D300 and D3 relase, Nikon was lagging behind Canon because it struggled with its sensors' noise and sensivity while Canon's CMOS were better, and I know a lot of Nikon users who "migrated" over to Canon. For now, the D3 might be better on some levels than the 1DMKIII, but who knows how Canon's next DSLRs are gonna be?

I don't think you can really compare the armlock Canon and Nikon are in to what's happening in HD video ; Canon clearly plays safely here instead of innovating like it does in the still photography world. Yeah, many of us are dissapointed, but if they're developping a better workflow for their next XL series models and need more time for their tech to be more cost/effective, I rather like the fact that they didn't rush their dev to get a bugged (or worse, a mock-up) XL-H2 just for show at NAB. They addressed some issues here, like a better servo lens and greater button customization options. It's not the best upgrade ever, and yes, it's dissapointing that the CCD block is the same 2 years-old technology, but the fact that they got a camcorder without HD-SDI outputs at 3000$ less might get people like me to upgrade to HD soon.

Why should a new camera model always mean you should feel the urging need to upgrade? Even if a 2-year camera is "old" by our standards now, the XL-H1 is still making pretty great pictures, so get out there and shoot until Canon gets their real XL-H2 out in a year or two!! :-P

Cheers!

April 14th, 2008, 02:03 PM	#79
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	canon's XL series has always been the last to market but the "best of its breed" when you compare apples to apples. happened on XL1, XL1s, XL2, XL H1, etc. i don't doubt it'll happen on whatever future releases it is going to be, when you compare apples to apples. __________________ bow wow wow

April 14th, 2008, 07:01 PM	#80
Barry Gregg Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Poulsbo, WA Posts: 104	The Red Scarlet is going to cost $3,000 with a fixed 8x zoom. The Scarlet is a 3k camera that will record to CF chips and will accept many of the Red One accessories. I believe I have found my next small camera to complement the Red One or the new Red Epic 5k. I will keep my XL H1 until the Scarlet is available. Sorry Canon, I guess that my only Canon's will be still camera's from now on. __________________ Walk in the light. www.barrygregg.us

April 15th, 2008, 07:42 AM	#81
Michael Galvan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 775	Is it known whether the new full spec HD-SDI on the XL-H1s is now actual 10-bit? Or still 8-bit stuffed into 10? __________________ www.michaelgalvan.com www.screenanthology.com

April 15th, 2008, 05:34 PM	#82
Julian Frost Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California USA Posts: 576	Solid State Life Expectancy No one in this thread has mentioned the life expectancy of solid state devices, which kinda surprises me. All current solid state memory devices have quite limited life expectancy as every write operation is destructive to the device. This is why the on-board logic purposely fragments files to spread the data "randomly" over the memory area. Read operations, however, are non-destructive. Since the solid state device will be storing huge amounts of data on a regular basis (much more so than regular USB thumb drive-type devices often used for storing documents), it is much more likely that the same pieces of memory will be written to much more frequently, and therefore are more likely to cause physical failures to the memory modules. Reading and writing to a hard drive is non-destructive, but of course you have mechanical issues with hard drives.

April 15th, 2008, 10:13 PM	#83
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	First I've heard of it--could you post links to a white paper or other reputable source on this? And/or quantify "quite limited life expectancy"? __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

April 14th, 2008, 02:58 AM	#76
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	$13,000. Really not worth the money. For that money I would rather buy a Panasonic HPX-500 or a Sony XDCAM (with the discs) and 2/3" lenses. And do you really think this is it? RED will blow every other announcement away with the Scarlet today. Furthermore, Canon is always late but they will come with a worthy successor. Expect the next XL to fuse with 35mm lenses or maybe 2/3" lenses and of course it will be tapeless. I really do not see why I would buy that Sony. It still feels clumsy (because that has not changed), the weight is all in front of your shoulder, so no advancement over the XL-H1 and the price... too expensive. You pay $4,000 for shoulder mount and some small updates. No, no Sony EX1/EX3 for me.

April 14th, 2008, 07:43 AM	#77
Gabriel Berube Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Lévis, QC, Canada Posts: 53	Maybe Canon's waiting for the Scarlet everyone's so hyped about to announce the real XL-H1 successor? Seems like in current news, Scarlet blows away every other new designs announcements, like Sony's EX3. Maybe Canon wants the hype to die down a bit before it announces a worthy competitor? Canon always proved to be a patient (albeit slow) cam designer. Look at what it's done with the XH-A1 model : they were last (or near last) to get onto the market, but they hit the spot right on. I don't think I ever heard any complaints about it, and even heard by a lot that it was the DVX100's successor. I think time will tell if Canon really dropped that ball, who knows, we might be really surprised at what it got up its sleeves! :-)

April 14th, 2008, 08:00 AM	#78
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	Gabriel, I could not agree more with you. And maybe Scarlett is a cooperation between Canon and Red.

April 16th, 2008, 07:39 AM	#86
Michael Galvan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 775	Clue to Canon developing their own HD codec? http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...-H1A-34876.htm Interesting comments in the interview they did with Canon ... Apparantly, they take it as clues that Canon is actually developing thier own HD codec for their next gen solid state camera. __________________ www.michaelgalvan.com www.screenanthology.com

April 16th, 2008, 12:37 PM	#88
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	which is a hint towards future developments? =D __________________ bow wow wow

April 17th, 2008, 07:20 AM	#90
Gabriel Berube Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Lévis, QC, Canada Posts: 53	Well, Paul, you need to remember something about the Canon vs Nikon war : About 2 years ago, when Canon released the first full-frame DSLR on the market, it was Nikon who lost a lot of its faithful users! Back before the D300 and D3 relase, Nikon was lagging behind Canon because it struggled with its sensors' noise and sensivity while Canon's CMOS were better, and I know a lot of Nikon users who "migrated" over to Canon. For now, the D3 might be better on some levels than the 1DMKIII, but who knows how Canon's next DSLRs are gonna be? I don't think you can really compare the armlock Canon and Nikon are in to what's happening in HD video ; Canon clearly plays safely here instead of innovating like it does in the still photography world. Yeah, many of us are dissapointed, but if they're developping a better workflow for their next XL series models and need more time for their tech to be more cost/effective, I rather like the fact that they didn't rush their dev to get a bugged (or worse, a mock-up) XL-H2 just for show at NAB. They addressed some issues here, like a better servo lens and greater button customization options. It's not the best upgrade ever, and yes, it's dissapointing that the CCD block is the same 2 years-old technology, but the fact that they got a camcorder without HD-SDI outputs at 3000$ less might get people like me to upgrade to HD soon. Why should a new camera model always mean you should feel the urging need to upgrade? Even if a 2-year camera is "old" by our standards now, the XL-H1 is still making pretty great pictures, so get out there and shoot until Canon gets their real XL-H2 out in a year or two!! :-P Cheers!