24f Ghosting at DVinfo.net

Dave Perry · February 26th, 2008, 03:51 PM

Hello gang,

I'm finally starting to switch to a 24p(f) workflow and have discovered that there is a setting(s) that creates extreme ghosting and trails. I created my own Custom Preset and have not had good results. I switched to AC PREF1 from the library here at DVinfo and get much better results. I'm also trying to get a cool somber look like the outdoor scenes in Children of Men.

Could anyone tell me which settings to be careful with, to avoid ghosting?

Attached is a screen shot of the settings that I came up with, and Alister Chapmans settings for CP #1 in the library.

Thanks.

Daniel Epstein · February 26th, 2008, 04:44 PM

Sounds like the noise reductions in the Custom Preset menu.

Dave Perry · February 26th, 2008, 05:03 PM

So should I not use the noise reduction?

Pete Bauer · February 26th, 2008, 09:26 PM

Would be helpful to see a frame grab or short clip so we don't misunderstand what you're seeing. Could be NR1 one if there is a lot of motion in low light, and you're using it. Going to the Advanced Search page and looking for NR1 in this forum will provide a lot of reading on the subject. Here's a start:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....9&postcount=10
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84881
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80396
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....03&postcount=8

Also, what shutter speed are you using? You'd expect that the slower shutter speeds typically used with 24fps shooting are going to give you more motion blur and accentuate the NR1 ghosting. Another gotcha is that using the Cine settings for gamma and color matrix requires greater exposure, and I believe to a lesser extent the same is true for the negative values in the color gains and matrices so if you're struggling with inadquate lighting, might be the lesser of evils to avoid those, even if it means some additional tweaking in post.

Dave Perry · February 27th, 2008, 10:08 AM

Thanks Peter and Daniel. I'm working on some new presets without NR1 and will let you know what happens. In the mean time, I've posted some screen shots and video clips at www.cartermedia.tv/DVinfo_samples

The movie clips are HDV 24p out of FCP Studio 2. The footage was shot in 24f using a Redrock Micro with a Nikon Nikkor S 50mm set at f2.

Camera settings:

Sequence_3_dp.mov and Sequence_3_dp2.mov - AE Shift 0, shutter 1/100, exposure locked and then +1

Sequence_3_dp3.mov - same as above but with shutter at 1/60 and AE Shift +.5

The ghosting is very apparent in red highlights and people's faces. The faces look like they are melting off. Kind of like Tom Cruise's face when he takes that shot in Minority Report. Also notice ghosting in the arm in Sequence_3_dp3.png.

Thanks for the suggestions and help.

Nick Hiltgen · February 27th, 2008, 10:48 AM

is skin detail on?

Dave Perry · February 27th, 2008, 11:15 AM

All Skin Detail settings are at default with the Detail setting off.

Hue - 0
Chroma - 0
Area - 0
Y Level - 0
Skin Detail - off

Dan Keaton · February 27th, 2008, 02:09 PM

Turn off Noise Reduction 1.

This will cause ghosting in low-light conditions.

Do not use Noise Reduction 1 unless you are locked down on a tripod. It is even better to avoid this at all times.

Nick Hiltgen · February 28th, 2008, 02:07 AM

Dan's absolutely right. I didn't look at the settings before I asked my question. Turn of NR1 and then see if ghosting is still there.

February 26th, 2008, 05:03 PM	#3
Dave Perry Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 796	So should I not use the noise reduction? __________________ Dave Perry Cinematographer LLC Director of Photography • Editor • Digital Film Production • 540.915.2752 • daveperry.net

February 26th, 2008, 09:26 PM	#4
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Would be helpful to see a frame grab or short clip so we don't misunderstand what you're seeing. Could be NR1 one if there is a lot of motion in low light, and you're using it. Going to the Advanced Search page and looking for NR1 in this forum will provide a lot of reading on the subject. Here's a start: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....9&postcount=10 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84881 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80396 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....03&postcount=8 Also, what shutter speed are you using? You'd expect that the slower shutter speeds typically used with 24fps shooting are going to give you more motion blur and accentuate the NR1 ghosting. Another gotcha is that using the Cine settings for gamma and color matrix requires greater exposure, and I believe to a lesser extent the same is true for the negative values in the color gains and matrices so if you're struggling with inadquate lighting, might be the lesser of evils to avoid those, even if it means some additional tweaking in post. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

February 27th, 2008, 10:08 AM	#5
Dave Perry Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 796	Thanks Peter and Daniel. I'm working on some new presets without NR1 and will let you know what happens. In the mean time, I've posted some screen shots and video clips at www.cartermedia.tv/DVinfo_samples The movie clips are HDV 24p out of FCP Studio 2. The footage was shot in 24f using a Redrock Micro with a Nikon Nikkor S 50mm set at f2. Camera settings: Sequence_3_dp.mov and Sequence_3_dp2.mov - AE Shift 0, shutter 1/100, exposure locked and then +1 Sequence_3_dp3.mov - same as above but with shutter at 1/60 and AE Shift +.5 The ghosting is very apparent in red highlights and people's faces. The faces look like they are melting off. Kind of like Tom Cruise's face when he takes that shot in Minority Report. Also notice ghosting in the arm in Sequence_3_dp3.png. Thanks for the suggestions and help. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Dave Perry Cinematographer LLC Director of Photography • Editor • Digital Film Production • 540.915.2752 • daveperry.net

February 27th, 2008, 10:48 AM	#6
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	is skin detail on? __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...

February 27th, 2008, 11:15 AM	#7
Dave Perry Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 796	All Skin Detail settings are at default with the Detail setting off. Hue - 0 Chroma - 0 Area - 0 Y Level - 0 Skin Detail - off __________________ Dave Perry Cinematographer LLC Director of Photography • Editor • Digital Film Production • 540.915.2752 • daveperry.net

February 26th, 2008, 03:51 PM	#1
Dave Perry Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 796	24f Ghosting Hello gang, I'm finally starting to switch to a 24p(f) workflow and have discovered that there is a setting(s) that creates extreme ghosting and trails. I created my own Custom Preset and have not had good results. I switched to AC PREF1 from the library here at DVinfo and get much better results. I'm also trying to get a cool somber look like the outdoor scenes in Children of Men. Could anyone tell me which settings to be careful with, to avoid ghosting? Attached is a screen shot of the settings that I came up with, and Alister Chapmans settings for CP #1 in the library. Thanks. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Dave Perry Cinematographer LLC Director of Photography • Editor • Digital Film Production • 540.915.2752 • daveperry.net

February 26th, 2008, 04:44 PM	#2
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	Sounds like the noise reductions in the Custom Preset menu.

February 27th, 2008, 02:09 PM	#8
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Turn off Noise Reduction 1. This will cause ghosting in low-light conditions. Do not use Noise Reduction 1 unless you are locked down on a tripod. It is even better to avoid this at all times. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

February 28th, 2008, 02:07 AM	#9
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	Dan's absolutely right. I didn't look at the settings before I asked my question. Turn of NR1 and then see if ghosting is still there. __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...