XL2 & 72030p at DVinfo.net

Dave Sparks · February 24th, 2007, 01:47 PM

Hi all, been lurking here for awhile, thanks to everyone I've learned tons here fantastic board!
Anyway I'm about to order an XL2 and was really curious if anyone has tried InstantHD to get useable 720 30p or 24p? I know the A1 is a great camera at the same price but I feel the new format for HD in the states here is pretty much up for grabs as far as the "standard" will be. Tons of posts and links seem to point 720/60p will be the standard, not just here but other boards also, all speculative of course.
I feel the XL2 is a great camera and think SD will be around for awhile but in 16:9 format, 4:3 will die out before HD takes over, again just a personal opinion, so please don't "flame" me. I like the idea of shooting real 16:9 and upressing to 720. Kind of a transition thing until the standards sort themselves out.
Any ideas about this or am I just crazy? I don't want to go overboard and jump on the A1 or HVX just to find out it's overkill.
As of now I'm not turning a dime in this, just an advanced amateur who's having a ball with my little DVC30 and final cut. Eventually when I learn this craft I would like to try making a living at this, but that is a few years down the road yet, day job thing. Just looking to posibly use what I shoot today later, like stock footage.
As for my background I took 3 years TV production in high school in Chicago in the early 80's, man a long time ago! Just recently rediscovered all this through iMovie and really enjoying myself. Lot's to learn though! Or relearn.
Also has anyone tries nik sharpener pro? Sorry don't know how to post a link but I also enjoy photography and this looks great for resizing photos. It does have a preset for displays and a free demo. Hoping to try it out this week just for fun.
Thanks for reading, very nice to meet you all. Again GREAT board!.....Dave

Wes Coughlin · February 24th, 2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Sparks

Tons of posts and links seem to point 720/60p will be the standard, not just here but other boards also, all speculative of course.

Although 720p may be a common formate for HD, its on the lower-end of the scale in terms of quality in the HD world. I dont know where you got this information about 720/60p becoming an HD standard, but it sounds very inaccurate. Most HD cameras and HD TV's are heading towards 1080i to 1080p, and 60p will most likely be only used to get slow motion in post.

And regarding software to upres 480p footage to 720p, I only see this feasible if you have some SD footage that you need to have within an HD project.

If you want something futureproof, I would defiantly get and A1 or some other HD cam. But if your just wanting to learn the basic's and still create good looking SD footage, I would try to look for a used XL2. As everything else needed for editing SD footage will be cheaper (hard-drive space, processing power, memory, software, etc..)

Dave Sparks · February 24th, 2007, 04:35 PM

I do agree you are right about 720 being the low end of HD, in all honesty I wish I could find the post about what Discovery, ETC.. are considering. I know it was on this board though, almost like a white paper quoted by a member, thats why I was asking. To me it did make sense though, had something to do with band width and a small difference, 20%, or so between 1080?. Wish I could find it!
I do thank you for replying though. While I do have the basics down the DV and now HD world is very new to me. That's why I came here before buying. Knowledge is the key and this is the best place to learn. Right now I would be happy plugging along with my little DVC but I got bit by the 16:9 bug. I also would like a more capable camera and HD aside, the XL2 seems like the camera for me. Just looking to make it, and what I shoot last a few years.
Thanks again for the help....it is appeciated!
Dave

Ash Greyson · February 25th, 2007, 01:17 PM

Unless you are delivering in HD, there is no reason to uprez. For the record, I have uprezzed XL2 24P into Varicam projects and it cut just fine.

ash =o)

Dave Sparks · February 25th, 2007, 01:32 PM

Thats very encouraging to hear. I have little to no use for HDV at this time and really don't see it in the near future. Most of what I shoot (personal projects) calls for pretty long lenses and the XL with EF adapter looks like the ticket. Great to know I will be able to mix later if I ever do go the HD route. Thanks again.......Dave

Bill Ravens · February 25th, 2007, 01:48 PM

not sure where you guys got your info, but, this is what it is...
DV is 720x480 60i
HDV is, among other things 1280x720 30p or 1440x1080 60i
Uprezzing DV to HDV is, as you may expect, imperfect, but possible. There has been a lot of discussion about 720p vs. 1080i, however, in my opinion, you can't see any difference on an SD monitor and the difference is very small on an HD monitor. Conventional HDTV, right now, is 720p. HD (which is different from HDV) is something lile 1920x1080.

Robert M Wright · February 25th, 2007, 03:51 PM

720/60p is a HDTV broadcast standard.

Wes Coughlin · February 25th, 2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert M Wright

720/60p is a HDTV broadcast standard.

Some networks have adopted 720p as a standard such as ABC and Fox, while some networks have adopted 1080i such as CBS, NBC, PBS, HDNet, HBO, and Showtime.

Michael Nistler · February 25th, 2007, 09:45 PM

Hi Dave,

Without knowing your target audience, it's a bit hard to make a comment one way or the other. For instance, the first benefit that comes to my mind is 16:9 vs 4:3, but then just because widescreens are becoming big sellers for home televisions it may have nothing to do with your viewers. Who are they?

Regards, Michael

Dave Sparks · February 26th, 2007, 04:58 PM

You're right Mike, should have let you in on what I'm up to first.
OK, right now I work as an aircraft mechanic for the Air Force Reserve, civilian during the week, GI on the weekend. This gives me a chance to travel alot, to think of what I missed shooting would make you cry, I do. Shooting aircraft and air shows is one of my interests.
I also like trains and wildlife so these are high on my list as well.
Within the next 2 or 3 years I'm looking to move on and start my own business, primarily photography with a side in video work. My plan is to hopefully take what interests me and produce DVDs for other train and plane buffs. I'm sure a little Doco stuff will be mixed in as well, I hope I'm explaining this alright.
I live in a rural area and local school sports is huge. I thought of giving that a go as well. I know it's all small potatoes but you have to start somewhere and I'm definetly not looking into broadcast work. Just looking to marry several hobbies and hopefully make a few bucks as well.
If all goes well in 2 years I'll take a look at where I'm going and what I may be making money on and let that decide my next HD camera purchase.
Right now I have a dual G5 with 3.5 gb of ram, a few lacie drives and Final Cut Studio to edit on. A set of Novatron CL04 lights and my camera is a DVC30. By the end of the week I'll be ordering a Senn G2 wireless system, K6 module with ME66&ME64 caps and a 40GB firestore, if this helps.
Sorry about the long post and maybe I'll learn to indent paragraphs soon! And as far as the audience is concerned I learn something everytime I'm here so thanks all...................Dave

Jeff Geissler · March 7th, 2007, 04:10 PM

I work as a gov't contractor (for the Navy) and know there is big money to be had in military stock footage-- here's the catch, and this is just personal opinion... If you want to offer something that may not be 'the norm' (i.e. competitive), I see them going HD in the years coming... So while I agree there is no need for an HDcam while you get things started and formats sort themselves out-- I do think if you are in situations NOW that you won't be in LATER, you are going to want HD... Just my opinion. But I totally understand budgetary and learning curve issues etc...

HOWEVER-- I've been shooting everything 16:9/24p
The key being 16/9-- This way, when I DO go the HD route at least that aspect of it will match up ;) 24p is a personal preference and really boils down to what look you want.... 30p might not be a bad idea if looking to eventually go to HD...

Here are a few other things to consider-- quality aside:
If you are taking this camera with you on your military excursions- will the size of the XL2 be of issue? When I went to volunteer in India, it was a bit of a hassle having something so 'big' and 'obvious' when all I wanted to do was basic touristy stuff. (I did do some higher end stock nature stuff as well, which the XL2 did GREAT with)...
While people tend to take a bigger camera more seriously (strange huh?)- there are several occasions when I wish I had something more handheld to be more discreet and not so noticeable on scene.

Whatever you decide, as long as you are shooting stuff you enjoy- all the other stuff doesn't matter much, my opinion-again.

While I want to invest in HD and wish I had it in my personal stash, I am completely content shooting with my XL2 freelance, working with bands etc... and then every once in awhile we'll pull out the HD's at work and start trying to sway clients towards that format...

I agree- HD can wait a little (not too long I hope)... but in the end, its all about HOW you shot it and how comfortable/knowledgeable you are with the camera and what makes a good shot...

sorry-- i tend to ramble.

Best of luck-- perhaps our paths will cross in the future...

Cheers~!

Dave Sparks · March 11th, 2007, 10:02 AM

Hi, Jeff
Just about everything you said has been rattling around my head for awhile making my head swim. As far as frame rate goes I do prefer 30p to 60i, in my eye takes the edge off the soap opera look of 60i. Never had a chance to try 24p, but would like to try it out.
Now here starts my love/hate relationship with my trusty DVC. It's small and compact, built like a tank, decent 16x zoom and a nice 4:3 picture (squeeze is OK but goes soft for 16:9). Strip the handle off and it looks pretty unassuming, add the handle with XLR adapter & mic it almost looks "PRO". You are right size and appearance do matter. Try walking up to a little league game with this. Parents, rightfully so, keep on eye on you!
Now for the XL2. It has that look people do take serious, interchangeable lens with the EF adapter, true progressive chips and real 16:9 which I'm coming to prefer. Plus I see a lot of situations where the telephoto effect with 35mm lenses will help.
For the time being most of what I do shoot will be delivered on DVD's to soccer moms for example or WEB delivery. So I'm thinking here and now and I feel the XL will fit the bill. That's why I asked about upresing. It would be nice to know I could use some footage in an HD project later should the need arise.
For the record I plan to keep the DVC for when space and "blending in" are a concern. I have a preset Ash posted for the DVX look so with some tweaking I will have the ability of a 2 camera shoot should I need it.

WOW, now I'm rambling! Thanks for the reply and hopefully one day are paths do cross. Take care........Dave

Jeff Geissler · March 11th, 2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Sparks

You're right Mike,
If all goes well in 2 years I'll take a look at where I'm going and what I may be making money on and let that decide my next HD camera purchase.
Right now I have a dual G5 with 3.5 gb of ram, a few lacie drives and Final Cut Studio to edit on. A set of Novatron CL04 lights and my camera is a DVC30. By the end of the week I'll be ordering a Senn G2 wireless system, K6 module with ME66&ME64 caps and a 40GB firestore, if this helps.
Sorry about the long post and maybe I'll learn to indent paragraphs soon! And as far as the audience is concerned I learn something everytime I'm here so thanks all...................Dave

I have pretty much the same set up-- I use the XL2 at home for my freelance work and typical video needs (hobby and otherwise)

At work I use the JVC HD cam when not using a Betacam or variant of it--I'm fortunate enough to have a Mac g5 (govt not big on the mac thing!) as well, and while we're still learning the inside and out of using HDV natively, we've mostly just been using the HD footage and editing/exporting in standard definition (SD, will HD one day be SD?-ha!)... i guess my point is-- you are good to go with the gear you have, with whatever you decide. To do true NATIVE HD you will need to invest in monitors and/or SDI cards etc... but like I think we've agreed, there is some time for the industry to work itself out and hopefully prices will even a little too... (though compared to when I bought MY XL2, HD seems awfully competitive!)

I think you will be completely happy with the XL2- its tough and its def. well known for it's bang for the buck...I havent used any of the Canon HD cams yet, but having used the JVC with manual lens- I'm thinking I'm going that route down the line...

You are right- this board is invaluable and the people overall are extremely generous in offering their experience/opinion etc...

Let me know what you end up with and how you feel the results are-- I'm pretty sure you wont be disappointed with the XL2, so I look forward to hearing about (and possibly seeing) some of your experiences with it...

Good Luck!

Brian K Jones · March 20th, 2007, 06:17 PM

To answer your original question, I have used my XL2 footage with Instant HD in several instances. It produces excellent results in 720p.

Dave Sparks · April 1st, 2007, 08:40 AM

Hi guys, sorry been away for awhile. After a bunch of contemplating I went the other direction and ordered a JVC HD110. Who would have guessed? Should be here this week and I can't wait. Thanks for the help and talk to you all later.
Dave.

February 24th, 2007, 01:47 PM	#1
Dave Sparks New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 11	XL2 & 72030p Hi all, been lurking here for awhile, thanks to everyone I've learned tons here fantastic board! Anyway I'm about to order an XL2 and was really curious if anyone has tried InstantHD to get useable 720 30p or 24p? I know the A1 is a great camera at the same price but I feel the new format for HD in the states here is pretty much up for grabs as far as the "standard" will be. Tons of posts and links seem to point 720/60p will be the standard, not just here but other boards also, all speculative of course. I feel the XL2 is a great camera and think SD will be around for awhile but in 16:9 format, 4:3 will die out before HD takes over, again just a personal opinion, so please don't "flame" me. I like the idea of shooting real 16:9 and upressing to 720. Kind of a transition thing until the standards sort themselves out. Any ideas about this or am I just crazy? I don't want to go overboard and jump on the A1 or HVX just to find out it's overkill. As of now I'm not turning a dime in this, just an advanced amateur who's having a ball with my little DVC30 and final cut. Eventually when I learn this craft I would like to try making a living at this, but that is a few years down the road yet, day job thing. Just looking to posibly use what I shoot today later, like stock footage. As for my background I took 3 years TV production in high school in Chicago in the early 80's, man a long time ago! Just recently rediscovered all this through iMovie and really enjoying myself. Lot's to learn though! Or relearn. Also has anyone tries nik sharpener pro? Sorry don't know how to post a link but I also enjoy photography and this looks great for resizing photos. It does have a preset for displays and a free demo. Hoping to try it out this week just for fun. Thanks for reading, very nice to meet you all. Again GREAT board!.....Dave

February 24th, 2007, 04:35 PM	#3
Dave Sparks New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 11	Hi Wes I do agree you are right about 720 being the low end of HD, in all honesty I wish I could find the post about what Discovery, ETC.. are considering. I know it was on this board though, almost like a white paper quoted by a member, thats why I was asking. To me it did make sense though, had something to do with band width and a small difference, 20%, or so between 1080?. Wish I could find it! I do thank you for replying though. While I do have the basics down the DV and now HD world is very new to me. That's why I came here before buying. Knowledge is the key and this is the best place to learn. Right now I would be happy plugging along with my little DVC but I got bit by the 16:9 bug. I also would like a more capable camera and HD aside, the XL2 seems like the camera for me. Just looking to make it, and what I shoot last a few years. Thanks again for the help....it is appeciated! Dave

February 25th, 2007, 01:32 PM	#5
Dave Sparks New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 11	Thanks Ash Thats very encouraging to hear. I have little to no use for HDV at this time and really don't see it in the near future. Most of what I shoot (personal projects) calls for pretty long lenses and the XL with EF adapter looks like the ticket. Great to know I will be able to mix later if I ever do go the HD route. Thanks again.......Dave

February 25th, 2007, 09:45 PM	#9
Michael Nistler Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Petaluma, CA Posts: 456	And the audience is? Hi Dave, Without knowing your target audience, it's a bit hard to make a comment one way or the other. For instance, the first benefit that comes to my mind is 16:9 vs 4:3, but then just because widescreens are becoming big sellers for home televisions it may have nothing to do with your viewers. Who are they? Regards, Michael

February 26th, 2007, 04:58 PM	#10
Dave Sparks New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 11	Hi All You're right Mike, should have let you in on what I'm up to first. OK, right now I work as an aircraft mechanic for the Air Force Reserve, civilian during the week, GI on the weekend. This gives me a chance to travel alot, to think of what I missed shooting would make you cry, I do. Shooting aircraft and air shows is one of my interests. I also like trains and wildlife so these are high on my list as well. Within the next 2 or 3 years I'm looking to move on and start my own business, primarily photography with a side in video work. My plan is to hopefully take what interests me and produce DVDs for other train and plane buffs. I'm sure a little Doco stuff will be mixed in as well, I hope I'm explaining this alright. I live in a rural area and local school sports is huge. I thought of giving that a go as well. I know it's all small potatoes but you have to start somewhere and I'm definetly not looking into broadcast work. Just looking to marry several hobbies and hopefully make a few bucks as well. If all goes well in 2 years I'll take a look at where I'm going and what I may be making money on and let that decide my next HD camera purchase. Right now I have a dual G5 with 3.5 gb of ram, a few lacie drives and Final Cut Studio to edit on. A set of Novatron CL04 lights and my camera is a DVC30. By the end of the week I'll be ordering a Senn G2 wireless system, K6 module with ME66&ME64 caps and a 40GB firestore, if this helps. Sorry about the long post and maybe I'll learn to indent paragraphs soon! And as far as the audience is concerned I learn something everytime I'm here so thanks all...................Dave

February 25th, 2007, 01:17 PM	#4
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Unless you are delivering in HD, there is no reason to uprez. For the record, I have uprezzed XL2 24P into Varicam projects and it cut just fine. ash =o)

February 25th, 2007, 01:48 PM	#6
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	not sure where you guys got your info, but, this is what it is... DV is 720x480 60i HDV is, among other things 1280x720 30p or 1440x1080 60i Uprezzing DV to HDV is, as you may expect, imperfect, but possible. There has been a lot of discussion about 720p vs. 1080i, however, in my opinion, you can't see any difference on an SD monitor and the difference is very small on an HD monitor. Conventional HDTV, right now, is 720p. HD (which is different from HDV) is something lile 1920x1080.

February 25th, 2007, 03:51 PM	#7
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	720/60p is a HDTV broadcast standard.

March 7th, 2007, 04:10 PM	#11
Jeff Geissler Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 55	I work as a gov't contractor (for the Navy) and know there is big money to be had in military stock footage-- here's the catch, and this is just personal opinion... If you want to offer something that may not be 'the norm' (i.e. competitive), I see them going HD in the years coming... So while I agree there is no need for an HDcam while you get things started and formats sort themselves out-- I do think if you are in situations NOW that you won't be in LATER, you are going to want HD... Just my opinion. But I totally understand budgetary and learning curve issues etc... HOWEVER-- I've been shooting everything 16:9/24p The key being 16/9-- This way, when I DO go the HD route at least that aspect of it will match up ;) 24p is a personal preference and really boils down to what look you want.... 30p might not be a bad idea if looking to eventually go to HD... Here are a few other things to consider-- quality aside: If you are taking this camera with you on your military excursions- will the size of the XL2 be of issue? When I went to volunteer in India, it was a bit of a hassle having something so 'big' and 'obvious' when all I wanted to do was basic touristy stuff. (I did do some higher end stock nature stuff as well, which the XL2 did GREAT with)... While people tend to take a bigger camera more seriously (strange huh?)- there are several occasions when I wish I had something more handheld to be more discreet and not so noticeable on scene. Whatever you decide, as long as you are shooting stuff you enjoy- all the other stuff doesn't matter much, my opinion-again. While I want to invest in HD and wish I had it in my personal stash, I am completely content shooting with my XL2 freelance, working with bands etc... and then every once in awhile we'll pull out the HD's at work and start trying to sway clients towards that format... I agree- HD can wait a little (not too long I hope)... but in the end, its all about HOW you shot it and how comfortable/knowledgeable you are with the camera and what makes a good shot... sorry-- i tend to ramble. Best of luck-- perhaps our paths will cross in the future... Cheers~! __________________ www.j-geissler.com Baltimore, MD 21085

March 11th, 2007, 10:02 AM	#12
Dave Sparks New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 11	Hi, Jeff Just about everything you said has been rattling around my head for awhile making my head swim. As far as frame rate goes I do prefer 30p to 60i, in my eye takes the edge off the soap opera look of 60i. Never had a chance to try 24p, but would like to try it out. Now here starts my love/hate relationship with my trusty DVC. It's small and compact, built like a tank, decent 16x zoom and a nice 4:3 picture (squeeze is OK but goes soft for 16:9). Strip the handle off and it looks pretty unassuming, add the handle with XLR adapter & mic it almost looks "PRO". You are right size and appearance do matter. Try walking up to a little league game with this. Parents, rightfully so, keep on eye on you! Now for the XL2. It has that look people do take serious, interchangeable lens with the EF adapter, true progressive chips and real 16:9 which I'm coming to prefer. Plus I see a lot of situations where the telephoto effect with 35mm lenses will help. For the time being most of what I do shoot will be delivered on DVD's to soccer moms for example or WEB delivery. So I'm thinking here and now and I feel the XL will fit the bill. That's why I asked about upresing. It would be nice to know I could use some footage in an HD project later should the need arise. For the record I plan to keep the DVC for when space and "blending in" are a concern. I have a preset Ash posted for the DVX look so with some tweaking I will have the ability of a 2 camera shoot should I need it. WOW, now I'm rambling! Thanks for the reply and hopefully one day are paths do cross. Take care........Dave

March 20th, 2007, 06:17 PM	#14
Brian K Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 68	Instant HD and Canon XL2 To answer your original question, I have used my XL2 footage with Instant HD in several instances. It produces excellent results in 720p.

April 1st, 2007, 08:40 AM	#15
Dave Sparks New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 11	Hi guys, sorry been away for awhile. After a bunch of contemplating I went the other direction and ordered a JVC HD110. Who would have guessed? Should be here this week and I can't wait. Thanks for the help and talk to you all later. Dave.