Use preset settings or CC in post? at DVinfo.net

Jad Meouchy · February 5th, 2007, 03:00 PM

I have read a lot of posts in this subforum and I'm still a little hazy on the ideal workflow. With CC readily available and integrated into my process, should I use anything but default preset settings? In other words, could those settings help me get more color detail? I would lean towards capturing a completely neutral image and adjusting it in post, but if certain lighting conditions can be fixed in the field by these presets, then I should make these adjustments to maximize picture quality. Does anyone know what I mean?

Ash Greyson · February 5th, 2007, 08:33 PM

Depends... are you editing in an uncompressed timeline? If you are editing DV in a DV timeline you are generally better off to get it as close to the final desired look as possible. DV falls apart pretty fast with color correction, especially if you are trying to make things look more saturated.

ash =o)

Jad Meouchy · February 8th, 2007, 08:37 PM

uncompressed? I am editing in the native DV codec, which I would assume is lossless in the first generation.

Ash Greyson · February 9th, 2007, 01:07 PM

Lossless until you add any effects or color...

ash =o)

Steve Burke · February 9th, 2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

DV falls apart pretty fast with color correction, especially if you are trying to make things look more saturated.
ash =o)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

Lossless until you add any effects or color...

Hi Ash

I agree with your comments regarding getting the best quality in the field before post.

Can you explain what you mean by the above statements?

When you say it falls apart, do you mean a visual quality difference on the final transcoded dvd?

Thanks

Steve

Jonathan Kirsch · February 9th, 2007, 05:20 PM

Ash is right...

A bit off topic...but forget the old saying "I can fix it in post". Nuh uh. Not if you want your stuff to look professional. Ask any videographer and they will tell you the same thing. Do the best you can in the field. Post-production work should be reserved for stylization and touch-up...it should not be a fall-back for laziness and poor shooting during production.

That said, there are times when you want to buck the system and shoot a certain style during production and is done solefully for the reason that you plan to manipulate it in post.

As for your question, build your own presets from the ones available. Every situation is different. Make changes that look the best DURING PRODUCTION. Then you can do touch-ups in post.

Jonathan

Dale Guthormsen · February 10th, 2007, 11:16 PM

Jonathan, Ash,

I agree with the premise of shooting it correctly from the start; That is ture for all photography.

I will say this, for many of us all the possible changes you can make with the presets is rather intimidating at times!!

The good news is that we have the likes of you guys to answer necessary questions in those regards!!

Ash Greyson · February 11th, 2007, 01:59 AM

When you push DV in post, you increase artifacting, noise, etc. The more you do, the worse it gets. It will make the biggest difference if you are broadcasting, for DVDs, it will make SOME difference. Authoring in progressive helps some.

ash =o)

Declan Smith · February 11th, 2007, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

Depends... are you editing in an uncompressed timeline? If you are editing DV in a DV timeline you are generally better off to get it as close to the final desired look as possible. DV falls apart pretty fast with color correction, especially if you are trying to make things look more saturated.
ash =o)

When you say an uncompressed timeline, would capturing DV then putting it through a lossless codec, like HUFFUV, get the right results ? Any recommendatiosn for working with Vegas to get optimum results when working with CC ?

Jad Meouchy · February 13th, 2007, 04:35 PM

Guys, what I'm trying to get it is the following question: does the XL2 preset system adjust the curves before or after encoding to DV? Because if it does it after, as I would suspect, then it is no different than post. However, if it does it while the stream is still uncompressed, then I should definitely spend the time to setup the curves for every shot as it will maximize the final quality by minimizing adjustments in post.

Anywhere I can find a system diagram or service manual for the XL2 to verify this?

Jad Meouchy · February 13th, 2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Kirsch

A bit off topic...but forget the old saying "I can fix it in post". Nuh uh. Not if you want your stuff to look professional. Ask any videographer and they will tell you the same thing. Do the best you can in the field. Post-production work should be reserved for stylization and touch-up...it should not be a fall-back for laziness and poor shooting during production.

I agree, but I shoot primarily in natural light, so CC comes down to matching intercut shots by color distribution, which is very difficult to do with run-and-gun. Efficiency can be distinguished from laziness :)

Tony Davies-Patrick · February 14th, 2007, 03:00 AM

Adjusting footage in post is best kept to a minimum, so I advise like the others have, to film with a good Preset from the start.

Adjusting exposure of slightly underexposed footage in post is the easiest to do and does not affect quality much as it is bringing out detail that is already there. Other adjustments, especially colour correction, is the hardest to do and tends to degrade the image the most.

DV just does not hold enough detail for a lot of fine adjustments and most software is too harsh for a lot of Post work. I wish that DV had the detail of 35mm film so that I could make the beautiful fine adjutments of exposure and colour that Adobe Photoshop CS2 provides!

Jonathan Kirsch · February 14th, 2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jad Meouchy

I agree, but I shoot primarily in natural light, so CC comes down to matching intercut shots by color distribution, which is very difficult to do with run-and-gun. Efficiency can be distinguished from laziness :)

Jad,

Sorry...didn't mean you were being lazy...I meant in general. :) And I do a lot of run and gun as well (no time or space to set up lights), so I understand where you're coming from. It just takes some practice with the presets. I'm still learning how they work as well. In time, you'll be able to look at a situation and know exactly what to tweak.

Jonathan

Jad Meouchy · February 14th, 2007, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Kirsch

Sorry...didn't mean you were being lazy...I meant in general. :) And I do a lot of run and gun as well (no time or space to set up lights), so I understand where you're coming from. It just takes some practice with the presets. I'm still learning how they work as well. In time, you'll be able to look at a situation and know exactly what to tweak.

Ya I got what you were saying and I just prefer to call my laziness 'efficiency' :)

Run and gun is proving to be a little bit difficult with this cam. Maybe I should have bought a DVX instead? I'm sure I'll change my mind once I get my hands on a letusXL.

February 5th, 2007, 03:00 PM	#1
Jad Meouchy Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 663	Use preset settings or CC in post? I have read a lot of posts in this subforum and I'm still a little hazy on the ideal workflow. With CC readily available and integrated into my process, should I use anything but default preset settings? In other words, could those settings help me get more color detail? I would lean towards capturing a completely neutral image and adjusting it in post, but if certain lighting conditions can be fixed in the field by these presets, then I should make these adjustments to maximize picture quality. Does anyone know what I mean?

February 10th, 2007, 11:16 PM	#7
Dale Guthormsen Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 3,048	Jonathan, Ash, I agree with the premise of shooting it correctly from the start; That is ture for all photography. I will say this, for many of us all the possible changes you can make with the presets is rather intimidating at times!! The good news is that we have the likes of you guys to answer necessary questions in those regards!! __________________ DATS ALL FOLKS Dale W. Guthormsen

February 14th, 2007, 03:00 AM	#12
Tony Davies-Patrick Trustee Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Worldwide Posts: 1,589	Adjusting footage in post is best kept to a minimum, so I advise like the others have, to film with a good Preset from the start. Adjusting exposure of slightly underexposed footage in post is the easiest to do and does not affect quality much as it is bringing out detail that is already there. Other adjustments, especially colour correction, is the hardest to do and tends to degrade the image the most. DV just does not hold enough detail for a lot of fine adjustments and most software is too harsh for a lot of Post work. I wish that DV had the detail of 35mm film so that I could make the beautiful fine adjutments of exposure and colour that Adobe Photoshop CS2 provides! __________________ www.WILDCARP.com www.NIKON.me.uk

February 5th, 2007, 08:33 PM	#2
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Depends... are you editing in an uncompressed timeline? If you are editing DV in a DV timeline you are generally better off to get it as close to the final desired look as possible. DV falls apart pretty fast with color correction, especially if you are trying to make things look more saturated. ash =o)

February 8th, 2007, 08:37 PM	#3
Jad Meouchy Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 663	uncompressed? I am editing in the native DV codec, which I would assume is lossless in the first generation.

February 9th, 2007, 01:07 PM	#4
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Lossless until you add any effects or color... ash =o)

February 9th, 2007, 05:20 PM	#6
Jonathan Kirsch Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 204	Ash is right... A bit off topic...but forget the old saying "I can fix it in post". Nuh uh. Not if you want your stuff to look professional. Ask any videographer and they will tell you the same thing. Do the best you can in the field. Post-production work should be reserved for stylization and touch-up...it should not be a fall-back for laziness and poor shooting during production. That said, there are times when you want to buck the system and shoot a certain style during production and is done solefully for the reason that you plan to manipulate it in post. As for your question, build your own presets from the ones available. Every situation is different. Make changes that look the best DURING PRODUCTION. Then you can do touch-ups in post. Jonathan

February 11th, 2007, 01:59 AM	#8
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	When you push DV in post, you increase artifacting, noise, etc. The more you do, the worse it gets. It will make the biggest difference if you are broadcasting, for DVDs, it will make SOME difference. Authoring in progressive helps some. ash =o)

February 13th, 2007, 04:35 PM	#10
Jad Meouchy Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 663	Guys, what I'm trying to get it is the following question: does the XL2 preset system adjust the curves before or after encoding to DV? Because if it does it after, as I would suspect, then it is no different than post. However, if it does it while the stream is still uncompressed, then I should definitely spend the time to setup the curves for every shot as it will maximize the final quality by minimizing adjustments in post. Anywhere I can find a system diagram or service manual for the XL2 to verify this?