New Short Film - "Sanctuary"

Colin Worley · December 7th, 2006, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas Scott

"Another thing that no one does but should be done is that when you film slow motion stuff you should switch it to 60i mode rather then frame blending 30p. In 60 I mode the camera actually captures 60 frames per second but they are half frames. In a program like after effects you can separate the fields and create real 60p footage that looks better then any time stretching technique that I have seen yet"

Alan, can you tell me a little bit more about this? I'm always a little frustrated about the look of slow motion on video. I have after effects but use it very seldom--how exactly do you 'separate the fields' ?

That's what I was wondering... Thanks for the tip too..

Colin Worley

Colin Worley · December 7th, 2006, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Bray

Why do you have $1200 worth of software, but only $150 worth of equipment?

I bought Premiere Pro 7 (not the newest.. 2.0) on ebay for $200. And I got After Effects on ebay too.. $500.. this was for a birthday present though.

I am trying to buy an XL2 soon... I'll hopefully have it within a month or so. I'm really excited to get it, and can't wait to make short films with it! It's going to be so awesome!

Thanks for the comment,

Colin Worley

Joseph Andolina · December 8th, 2006, 11:47 AM

Colin, I posted this to You Tube, but couldn;t post as many characters on that page due to restrictions, so here are my comments in full:

Don't take to heart when someone just responds with "sucked" on You Tube. Sometimes I think they do that because they have nothing creative to say that's worthy of reading. And I bet they couldn't even come close to what you acheived in your short if they tried themselves. I say EXCELLENT JOB! Sure it's not perfect, but it's about creative choices and the pros don't always hit the mark as well.But excellent job none the less. You have a great sence of film making as far as I'm concerned; you told a story; and without dialog to rely on. And created a mood. Keep making shorts and keep practicing your craft. Also, it's not about what you have, such as what kind of camera, whether it be a 300.00 consumer camera, or a XL2, or whatever, it's how you use it that can go a long way.

Joe

Colin Worley · December 9th, 2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph Andolina

Colin, I posted this to You Tube, but couldn;t post as many characters on that page due to restrictions, so here are my comments in full:

Don't take to heart when someone just responds with "sucked" on You Tube. Sometimes I think they do that because they have nothing creative to say that's worthy of reading. And I bet they couldn't even come close to what you acheived in your short if they tried themselves. I say EXCELLENT JOB! Sure it's not perfect, but it's about creative choices and the pros don't always hit the mark as well.But excellent job none the less. You have a great sence of film making as far as I'm concerned; you told a story; and without dialog to rely on. And created a mood. Keep making shorts and keep practicing your craft. Also, it's not about what you have, such as what kind of camera, whether it be a 300.00 consumer camera, or a XL2, or whatever, it's how you use it that can go a long way.

Joe

Thanks Joe, your are very kind, and I really appreciate your comment. Also, thanks for watching my film. I agree with you, it's not what equipment you use (although it is nice to have an expensive camera such as an XL2) but it's how you tell your story, and give the mood of the film... I am going to continue my short films, and showing everyone what I can do... and I hope that my filmmaking will eventually inspire someone to tell a story through the magic of film....

Thanks again for watching the film, and for your kind comment, I appreciate it!

~Colin

Tim Bickford · December 11th, 2006, 03:23 PM

Colin,

I was the guy that made the Ford Pinto comment a while back. You know… when you were trying to get more than a good buy on an XL2.

I must say that I think your video was cool. Honestly, it held my interest simply because of the circumstances (i.e. your desire to prove that you can make good video). As far as the concept I was a bit lost. However, I think you were creative! I liked some of the techniques that you used. I’m looking forward to seeing some of the things that you’ll do when you do get your XL2.

Nice job!

Colin Worley · December 11th, 2006, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Bickford

Colin,

I was the guy that made the Ford Pinto comment a while back. You know… when you were trying to get more than a good buy on an XL2.

I must say that I think your video was cool. Honestly, it held my interest simply because of the circumstances (i.e. your desire to prove that you can make good video). As far as the concept I was a bit lost. However, I think you were creative! I liked some of the techniques that you used. I’m looking forward to seeing some of the things that you’ll do when you do get your XL2.

Nice job!

Thanks Tim... sorry I couldn't remember who said that, the administrators deleted the whole thread.

Thanks for the comment, I'm glad you liked the film. If you didn't get the story, I will go ahead and give you a little synopsis.

So the young teenager had just recently lost his brother, and is very depressed about this major tragedy. Him and his brother were best friends... After the boy dies, the teenager turns to the only place he can to relieve his pain and sorrow and show his true emotions. The boy's 'Sanctuary' is his piano. Playing the piano brings him back to the memories of his brother, and makes him happy. After visiting the site of his brother's death, the cross on the side of the road, he is so sad that he tries to remove his brother from his thoughts, and try to get on with his life. He lets the picture of his brother fly away in the wind. As the boy shuts the brother out of his life, he also shuts his sanctuary, the piano, out of his life.. resulting in greater sadness. But, as the teenager remembers the good times he and his brother had, he runs after the picture blowing away in the wind, and returns to his piano. The cup (his life) is refilled with water (happiness, or love), and the boy plays happily on his piano, remembering his brother.

After reading this, it might help to watch the film again, now that you know the story....

Thanks again Tim for the reply and thanks for watching the film, I really appreciate it! I can't wait untill I get the XL2, and begin to better my films... I'm really excited!

Thanks,

~Colin Worley

Alan James · December 12th, 2006, 12:26 AM

Sorry this took so long. It was exam week and I was a bit busy.

Film in 60i. Pull that over to the computer as normal but be sure to use the scene detection option so that the clip is only 60i (kinda a duh but some people don’t know). Open After Effects and create a composition 2.5 times longer then the source file if u want ur final frame rate to be 23.976. If you want it to be 29.97 then set it 2 times longer. Then also set ur frame rate for the composition to whatever you want ur final frame rate to be (again kinda duh but I’m just going step by step).

Okay so now import your 60i footage. Right click on the footage and click on interpret footage. In the new window that has popped up under fields and pull down there is a place that says separate fields. If you are using HDV 60i then make sure it says upper field first. If you are using DV 60i make sure it says lower field first. Be sure to click “Preserve Edges”.

Basically what this has done for those of you that don’t know (there are some) is it has separated the fields and is treating the even fields as one frame and the odd fields as another frame. Preserve Edges tells it to interpolate the fields it isn’t using. But the clip is still to short so it isn’t showing all the frames it should.

Go up top to layer. Then click on time. Under time change the speed to 250% for 24p and 200% for 30p. If u have done everything correct you should be able to preview this and it will look like real slow motion. Export it and you are done.

This is how my man Robert Rodriguez did slow motion for Once Upon a Time in Mexico. The F950 were able to output 60p rather then 60i that the F900 did (if my memory serves me correct). Anyways hope this helps. Have fun.

(ADVANCE USER TIPS)
If u use HDV u can actually put that into a DV composition and not have to interpolate the lines u don’t have because each frame is 540 lines in a 480 line composition. But the color and gamma curve wont match the XL2 if that is what u are using to shoot ur progressive footage. I think also if u put a vertical directional bur of either 1 or 2 pixels it will smooth out the flicker.

Colin Worley · December 13th, 2006, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan James

Sorry this took so long. It was exam week and I was a bit busy.

Film in 60i. Pull that over to the computer as normal but be sure to use the scene detection option so that the clip is only 60i (kinda a duh but some people don’t know). Open After Effects and create a composition 2.5 times longer then the source file if u want ur final frame rate to be 23.976. If you want it to be 29.97 then set it 2 times longer. Then also set ur frame rate for the composition to whatever you want ur final frame rate to be (again kinda duh but I’m just going step by step).

Okay so now import your 60i footage. Right click on the footage and click on interpret footage. In the new window that has popped up under fields and pull down there is a place that says separate fields. If you are using HDV 60i then make sure it says upper field first. If you are using DV 60i make sure it says lower field first. Be sure to click “Preserve Edges”.

Basically what this has done for those of you that don’t know (there are some) is it has separated the fields and is treating the even fields as one frame and the odd fields as another frame. Preserve Edges tells it to interpolate the fields it isn’t using. But the clip is still to short so it isn’t showing all the frames it should.

Go up top to layer. Then click on time. Under time change the speed to 250% for 24p and 200% for 30p. If u have done everything correct you should be able to preview this and it will look like real slow motion. Export it and you are done.

This is how my man Robert Rodriguez did slow motion for Once Upon a Time in Mexico. The F950 were able to output 60p rather then 60i that the F900 did (if my memory serves me correct). Anyways hope this helps. Have fun.

(ADVANCE USER TIPS)
If u use HDV u can actually put that into a DV composition and not have to interpolate the lines u don’t have because each frame is 540 lines in a 480 line composition. But the color and gamma curve wont match the XL2 if that is what u are using to shoot ur progressive footage. I think also if u put a vertical directional bur of either 1 or 2 pixels it will smooth out the flicker.

Thanks Alan, those are some good tips. I appreciate your advice, and your time for watching the film.

I'll keep those tips in mind, and continue to make short films...

Thanks a lot for the awesome reply, I appreciate a lot!

Thanks everyone who has watched my film, and thanks to all who have replied to it...

I'll put my lastest film on Youtube soon, so check back on that!

Thanks again,

Colin Worley

Adam Bray · December 13th, 2006, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan James

Sorry this took so long. It was exam week and I was a bit busy.

Film in 60i. Pull that over to the computer as normal but be sure to use the scene detection option so that the clip is only 60i (kinda a duh but some people don’t know). Open After Effects and create a composition 2.5 times longer then the source file if u want ur final frame rate to be 23.976. If you want it to be 29.97 then set it 2 times longer. Then also set ur frame rate for the composition to whatever you want ur final frame rate to be (again kinda duh but I’m just going step by step).

Okay so now import your 60i footage. Right click on the footage and click on interpret footage. In the new window that has popped up under fields and pull down there is a place that says separate fields. If you are using HDV 60i then make sure it says upper field first. If you are using DV 60i make sure it says lower field first. Be sure to click “Preserve Edges”.

Basically what this has done for those of you that don’t know (there are some) is it has separated the fields and is treating the even fields as one frame and the odd fields as another frame. Preserve Edges tells it to interpolate the fields it isn’t using. But the clip is still to short so it isn’t showing all the frames it should.

Go up top to layer. Then click on time. Under time change the speed to 250% for 24p and 200% for 30p. If u have done everything correct you should be able to preview this and it will look like real slow motion. Export it and you are done.

This is how my man Robert Rodriguez did slow motion for Once Upon a Time in Mexico. The F950 were able to output 60p rather then 60i that the F900 did (if my memory serves me correct). Anyways hope this helps. Have fun.

(ADVANCE USER TIPS)
If u use HDV u can actually put that into a DV composition and not have to interpolate the lines u don’t have because each frame is 540 lines in a 480 line composition. But the color and gamma curve wont match the XL2 if that is what u are using to shoot ur progressive footage. I think also if u put a vertical directional bur of either 1 or 2 pixels it will smooth out the flicker.

Great tip. But how to you get the 60i footage to not look so much like "video" so it can match the 30p or 24p footage the rest of the footage was shot in?

Janssen Herr · December 13th, 2006, 09:20 PM

I just came across this thread, I liked the movie (not the compression). What struck me was the camera you used. I was between cameras a few years ago and used that exact same JVC 1ccd camera to make an art film. You can watch it here:

http://www.janssenherr.com/Dubbelgangaren.html

I thought you did well with the editing and some of the effects and CC.

Mostly appreciated the length that you took that little camera to. Its not an easy camera, bad in lowlight, noisy image, heavy aliasing, funtions via the menu button- typical of any low end 1ccd. Kudos!!

Janssen Herr

Alan James · December 14th, 2006, 01:50 AM

After you turn the 60i into 60p it (in my opinion) doesn’t look videoy. But if you think it does it is probably because of your shutter speed. You should double your shutter speed for whatever frame rate you are shooting in if you want it to look like celluloid. The reason is that that is how celluloid works. If you are shooting at 24fps on celluloid your shutter is open for 1/48 of a second and closed for 1/48 of a second. When it is closed is when the celluloid actually moves to the next frame then opens again to get exposed (basically).

If you really want to get technical other problems with dv is the depth of field is shallower then normal 35mm because it is spreading the image over a smaller area (1/3 inch to be exact.) but this can be solved with mini 35 by P+S Technik. This isn’t the right area for this but another issue is dynamic range. This takes a lot of explaining and most people don’t get this. Basically its how much far into whites and how far into blacks you can see. The human eye can see 32 stops of light, celluloid can see 16 stops (if developed correct), cinema HD cameras can see 10 stops and our beloved XL2 can see a mere 8 stops. Obviously another issue is resolution but because most of us wont be releasing our videos in theaters its no big deal. The last issue is color timing. The XL2 (and mostly all dv cameras) only record color information every four frames. This is a big problem when pulling green screen or doing most visual effects. Hope that helped you out solving your “video” problem but if not I hope you still learned something.

Andrew Clark · December 14th, 2006, 10:33 PM

Alan -

Have you ever used Twixtor for doing slo-mo stuff?

Alan James · December 15th, 2006, 11:12 PM

No I have never used Twixtor. I have used Retimer and a few other minor interpolation programs but none of them have ever really measured up to what I thought they should be. There always seems to be a frame blending type of effect, or a strange motion blur. If I wanted to shoot something over 60 fps on the cheap I would probably use an HDV 60i camera and turn that into SD 60p (no field interpolation and no flicker) then interpolate that new 60p footage in a program or plug in like Retimer or Twixtor. The problem I have found is kinda obvious but the slower you make a clip the more problems you have. So thus if you start with slow motion footage already it will come out better. I never go over 60fps but if you’re someone like Quentin Tarantino or Michael Bay doing super slow motion (like 180fps, just a guess) it would probably be worth using one of those programs. We should start a thread about slow motion and the XL2. If anyone wants to start it I will add to it so we can discuss this subject with a larger group (cause I mean who would think to find slow motion advice in this thread lol).

Joseph Andolina · December 16th, 2006, 09:33 PM

Allan, as I'm responding back to your comment on my 30sec spot on the other thread, I noticed your last comments on this thread about slow motion, and might be doing slow motion in post for a music video I'm about to embark on. So, a thread on that would be just what I'd like to see as well. Hearing that it's better to shoot in 60I for slowmotion in post, but yet the brunt of the video I'm going to be shooting is going to be in 24pn. I don;t have a lot of time on my hands to experiment at the moment. I'd be wondering what would be the best way in post to deal with the two different frame rates as farf as look goes.

Joe

Kevin Randolph · January 6th, 2007, 09:46 PM

Colin,
I think that you took that JVC you have through a pretty good workout. What struck me as the most impressive thing about the short was your creative use of camera angles. I think that it's great that you weren't afraid of trying "unusual" angles. I found the editing to be pretty good and differ to some earlier comments on how to improve it.

I do have one thing to mention for "room for improvement" on your next short - if you have to give a synopsis with the short then you haven't effectively told your story. Get with the english teacher at your school and review with him/her the steps involved in a three act play (it's a bit more than beginning, middle, and end). Then after you think you have a pretty good understanding of what a three act story consist of, go and watch one of your favorite movies. Look for the different acts and what happens that changes from act I to act II and from Act II to Act III. Then write your next script for your next short. Cinematography isn't just about pretty pictures (although they help out a lot and you had some good ones in this short), it's very much about telling a story.

Keep it up, and don't let the [insert expletive] get you down... even me,

Kevin

December 11th, 2006, 03:23 PM	#20
Tim Bickford Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 448	Colin, I was the guy that made the Ford Pinto comment a while back. You know… when you were trying to get more than a good buy on an XL2. I must say that I think your video was cool. Honestly, it held my interest simply because of the circumstances (i.e. your desire to prove that you can make good video). As far as the concept I was a bit lost. However, I think you were creative! I liked some of the techniques that you used. I’m looking forward to seeing some of the things that you’ll do when you do get your XL2. Nice job! __________________ Tim Bickford

December 13th, 2006, 09:20 PM	#25
Janssen Herr New Boot Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Malmö, Sweden Posts: 23	Nice movie with the 'Ford JVC' I just came across this thread, I liked the movie (not the compression). What struck me was the camera you used. I was between cameras a few years ago and used that exact same JVC 1ccd camera to make an art film. You can watch it here: http://www.janssenherr.com/Dubbelgangaren.html I thought you did well with the editing and some of the effects and CC. Mostly appreciated the length that you took that little camera to. Its not an easy camera, bad in lowlight, noisy image, heavy aliasing, funtions via the menu button- typical of any low end 1ccd. Kudos!! Janssen Herr __________________ www.janssenherr.com www.preamp.se

December 14th, 2006, 10:33 PM	#27
Andrew Clark Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 477	Twixtor Alan - Have you ever used Twixtor for doing slo-mo stuff?

January 6th, 2007, 09:46 PM	#30
Kevin Randolph Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 423	Colin, I think that you took that JVC you have through a pretty good workout. What struck me as the most impressive thing about the short was your creative use of camera angles. I think that it's great that you weren't afraid of trying "unusual" angles. I found the editing to be pretty good and differ to some earlier comments on how to improve it. I do have one thing to mention for "room for improvement" on your next short - if you have to give a synopsis with the short then you haven't effectively told your story. Get with the english teacher at your school and review with him/her the steps involved in a three act play (it's a bit more than beginning, middle, and end). Then after you think you have a pretty good understanding of what a three act story consist of, go and watch one of your favorite movies. Look for the different acts and what happens that changes from act I to act II and from Act II to Act III. Then write your next script for your next short. Cinematography isn't just about pretty pictures (although they help out a lot and you had some good ones in this short), it's very much about telling a story. Keep it up, and don't let the [insert expletive] get you down... even me, Kevin __________________ "... the drama is on your doorstep..." - John Grierson www.grvideo.net

December 8th, 2006, 11:47 AM	#18
Joseph Andolina Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 178	Colin, I posted this to You Tube, but couldn;t post as many characters on that page due to restrictions, so here are my comments in full: Don't take to heart when someone just responds with "sucked" on You Tube. Sometimes I think they do that because they have nothing creative to say that's worthy of reading. And I bet they couldn't even come close to what you acheived in your short if they tried themselves. I say EXCELLENT JOB! Sure it's not perfect, but it's about creative choices and the pros don't always hit the mark as well.But excellent job none the less. You have a great sence of film making as far as I'm concerned; you told a story; and without dialog to rely on. And created a mood. Keep making shorts and keep practicing your craft. Also, it's not about what you have, such as what kind of camera, whether it be a 300.00 consumer camera, or a XL2, or whatever, it's how you use it that can go a long way. Joe

December 12th, 2006, 12:26 AM	#22
Alan James Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 261	Sorry this took so long. It was exam week and I was a bit busy. Film in 60i. Pull that over to the computer as normal but be sure to use the scene detection option so that the clip is only 60i (kinda a duh but some people don’t know). Open After Effects and create a composition 2.5 times longer then the source file if u want ur final frame rate to be 23.976. If you want it to be 29.97 then set it 2 times longer. Then also set ur frame rate for the composition to whatever you want ur final frame rate to be (again kinda duh but I’m just going step by step). Okay so now import your 60i footage. Right click on the footage and click on interpret footage. In the new window that has popped up under fields and pull down there is a place that says separate fields. If you are using HDV 60i then make sure it says upper field first. If you are using DV 60i make sure it says lower field first. Be sure to click “Preserve Edges”. Basically what this has done for those of you that don’t know (there are some) is it has separated the fields and is treating the even fields as one frame and the odd fields as another frame. Preserve Edges tells it to interpolate the fields it isn’t using. But the clip is still to short so it isn’t showing all the frames it should. Go up top to layer. Then click on time. Under time change the speed to 250% for 24p and 200% for 30p. If u have done everything correct you should be able to preview this and it will look like real slow motion. Export it and you are done. This is how my man Robert Rodriguez did slow motion for Once Upon a Time in Mexico. The F950 were able to output 60p rather then 60i that the F900 did (if my memory serves me correct). Anyways hope this helps. Have fun. (ADVANCE USER TIPS) If u use HDV u can actually put that into a DV composition and not have to interpolate the lines u don’t have because each frame is 540 lines in a 480 line composition. But the color and gamma curve wont match the XL2 if that is what u are using to shoot ur progressive footage. I think also if u put a vertical directional bur of either 1 or 2 pixels it will smooth out the flicker.

December 14th, 2006, 01:50 AM	#26
Alan James Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 261	After you turn the 60i into 60p it (in my opinion) doesn’t look videoy. But if you think it does it is probably because of your shutter speed. You should double your shutter speed for whatever frame rate you are shooting in if you want it to look like celluloid. The reason is that that is how celluloid works. If you are shooting at 24fps on celluloid your shutter is open for 1/48 of a second and closed for 1/48 of a second. When it is closed is when the celluloid actually moves to the next frame then opens again to get exposed (basically). If you really want to get technical other problems with dv is the depth of field is shallower then normal 35mm because it is spreading the image over a smaller area (1/3 inch to be exact.) but this can be solved with mini 35 by P+S Technik. This isn’t the right area for this but another issue is dynamic range. This takes a lot of explaining and most people don’t get this. Basically its how much far into whites and how far into blacks you can see. The human eye can see 32 stops of light, celluloid can see 16 stops (if developed correct), cinema HD cameras can see 10 stops and our beloved XL2 can see a mere 8 stops. Obviously another issue is resolution but because most of us wont be releasing our videos in theaters its no big deal. The last issue is color timing. The XL2 (and mostly all dv cameras) only record color information every four frames. This is a big problem when pulling green screen or doing most visual effects. Hope that helped you out solving your “video” problem but if not I hope you still learned something.

December 15th, 2006, 11:12 PM	#28
Alan James Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 261	No I have never used Twixtor. I have used Retimer and a few other minor interpolation programs but none of them have ever really measured up to what I thought they should be. There always seems to be a frame blending type of effect, or a strange motion blur. If I wanted to shoot something over 60 fps on the cheap I would probably use an HDV 60i camera and turn that into SD 60p (no field interpolation and no flicker) then interpolate that new 60p footage in a program or plug in like Retimer or Twixtor. The problem I have found is kinda obvious but the slower you make a clip the more problems you have. So thus if you start with slow motion footage already it will come out better. I never go over 60fps but if you’re someone like Quentin Tarantino or Michael Bay doing super slow motion (like 180fps, just a guess) it would probably be worth using one of those programs. We should start a thread about slow motion and the XL2. If anyone wants to start it I will add to it so we can discuss this subject with a larger group (cause I mean who would think to find slow motion advice in this thread lol).

December 16th, 2006, 09:33 PM	#29
Joseph Andolina Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 178	Allan, as I'm responding back to your comment on my 30sec spot on the other thread, I noticed your last comments on this thread about slow motion, and might be doing slow motion in post for a music video I'm about to embark on. So, a thread on that would be just what I'd like to see as well. Hearing that it's better to shoot in 60I for slowmotion in post, but yet the brunt of the video I'm going to be shooting is going to be in 24pn. I don;t have a lot of time on my hands to experiment at the moment. I'd be wondering what would be the best way in post to deal with the two different frame rates as farf as look goes. Joe