Verticle Lines/Stepping in XL2 Footage at DVinfo.net

Brad Simmons · January 29th, 2006, 09:36 PM

Hi,
I'm using the XL2 and FCP 5.
Just shot a video this past weekend and I am very upset with the footage.

When I capture my footage to FCP, it looks horrible, with verticle lines. At first I thought it was interlacing, but wouldn't those be horizontal lines?

I shot in 60i mode.

Here are a few screenshots.
Anyone know what is going on here?
This footage looks like it was shot with a digital still camera or worse.

http://www.fusionarena.com/1.jpg
http://www.fusionarena.com/2.jpg

If you need to know any other settings I used please let me know.

thanks

Eric Brown · January 29th, 2006, 09:56 PM

Hey, Brad, there are many, many posts on the subject of the XL2 and aliasing. Go to the search engine and type in: "aliasing xl2" and moire xl2" That was actually what my very first post was about concerning my then brand new XL2. It very quickly became a non-issue with some tweaking and the realization that the severity of the aliasing is in the playback of the footage in the NLE window, not in the footage itself (at least in my case). Check it out.

Matthew Nayman · January 30th, 2006, 11:12 AM

Brad,

Always have a look at your footage on an interlaced *CRT* monitor. That is typically where it looks best. Computer screens can be confusing, expecially LCD flat panels.

Eric Brown · January 30th, 2006, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Nayman

Brad,

Always have a look at your footage on an interlaced LCD monitor. That is typically where it looks best. Computer screens can be confusing, expecially LCD flat panels.

Matt, did you by chance mean to say CRT monitor? That's actually where his footage will look the best. A really decent field / studio CRT monitor, especially.

Matthew Nayman · January 30th, 2006, 06:30 PM

OOPS!

Nice spot, I did infact mean CRT!

DOH!

Brad Simmons · January 31st, 2006, 01:59 PM

Hi guys, thanks for the info, I did some reading here and have discovered a few things.

Eric you are right, when I previewed the footage in my Sony broadcast monitor the jaggies were reduced significantly.

Though I am confused on what exactly is causing the aliasing in the NLE because I have shot plenty of footage with the XL1s and other cameras which don't give off this kind of effect on an LCD monitor.

I read everything from "don't worry it's not your camera" to "you need to adjust the camera settings", so there seems to be conflicting viewpoints on this.

What appears to be a major contributer: when the lighting is red, the aliasing is much more severe. I've noticed heavy aliasing when filming subjects lit in red light when shooting 24p widescreen on the XL2, as well as 60i 4/3 mode.

Viewing it on a broadcast monitor eases my mind a bit, however I also plan on uploading the video to the internet. Do you know of anything I could use in post production to minimize this effect when viewing on an LCD?

.

Ash Greyson · January 31st, 2006, 05:50 PM

White balance there was WAY too warm and a little over-exposed... compression hates red, has nothing to do with the XL2, even a $100K Varicam hates red. When you get in this situation, you can WB cool (to pink), take the color phase a notch or two toward green and turn down the set-up and master pedestal a little. In post you can add some chrom blur to help cover it as well. This effect is accentuated in FCP when working with 24P 2:3:3:2 timelines, dunno why but I always let the XL2 do the pull down in camera....

ash =o)

Steve Madsen · February 2nd, 2006, 04:28 AM

Ash, I understand why Varicam hates Red...but why compression? Do you know something the rest of us don't?

Ash Greyson · February 2nd, 2006, 02:31 PM

I am sure someone could talk more techy nerdy than me but reds just dont like video and compression just makes it worse. Varicam is fine on plain red but cast a shadow or going into a burgandy and you will see lots of noise...

ash =o)

Steve Madsen · February 3rd, 2006, 06:17 AM

Damn, I went too subtle. Thanks for the info Ash...though I was playing on the Red camera, rather than the colour.

OT, I've appreciated your info over time on adjusting the xl2. I've just gotten some gorgeous footage purely adjusting in cam. Rich colours, nice contrast...almost looks "filmlike", er "DVXlike", ahem...it just looks good! And I've still got all that lovely 16:9 res. Now to see the effects of desharpening...

David Herman · February 4th, 2006, 04:29 AM

A 2c worth from another xl2 struggler. I had a similar ghastly red aliasing experience recently. Was my first time after shooting a lot of fairly satisfactory footage. Lots of pondering till I realised I had changed a setting, I believe it was knee, (?) to low. Restored my settings and the problem vanished. As an ex-XL1 user I am aware of the time (I don't have) that needs to be devoted to playing with the camera to suss out the best settings.

Ash Greyson · February 4th, 2006, 12:25 PM

A low knee will keep your highlights in check... unless you WANT the super-contrasty look... low knee is best...

ash =o)

January 29th, 2006, 09:36 PM	#1
Brad Simmons Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Washington DC Posts: 304	Verticle Lines/Stepping in XL2 Footage Hi, I'm using the XL2 and FCP 5. Just shot a video this past weekend and I am very upset with the footage. When I capture my footage to FCP, it looks horrible, with verticle lines. At first I thought it was interlacing, but wouldn't those be horizontal lines? I shot in 60i mode. Here are a few screenshots. Anyone know what is going on here? This footage looks like it was shot with a digital still camera or worse. http://www.fusionarena.com/1.jpg http://www.fusionarena.com/2.jpg If you need to know any other settings I used please let me know. thanks __________________ http://www.fusionarena.com

January 30th, 2006, 11:12 AM	#3
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	Brad, Always have a look at your footage on an interlaced CRT monitor. That is typically where it looks best. Computer screens can be confusing, expecially LCD flat panels. Last edited by Matthew Nayman; January 30th, 2006 at 06:30 PM.

January 31st, 2006, 01:59 PM	#6
Brad Simmons Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Washington DC Posts: 304	Hi guys, thanks for the info, I did some reading here and have discovered a few things. Eric you are right, when I previewed the footage in my Sony broadcast monitor the jaggies were reduced significantly. Though I am confused on what exactly is causing the aliasing in the NLE because I have shot plenty of footage with the XL1s and other cameras which don't give off this kind of effect on an LCD monitor. I read everything from "don't worry it's not your camera" to "you need to adjust the camera settings", so there seems to be conflicting viewpoints on this. What appears to be a major contributer: when the lighting is red, the aliasing is much more severe. I've noticed heavy aliasing when filming subjects lit in red light when shooting 24p widescreen on the XL2, as well as 60i 4/3 mode. Viewing it on a broadcast monitor eases my mind a bit, however I also plan on uploading the video to the internet. Do you know of anything I could use in post production to minimize this effect when viewing on an LCD? . __________________ http://www.fusionarena.com

January 29th, 2006, 09:56 PM	#2
Eric Brown Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 427	Hey, Brad, there are many, many posts on the subject of the XL2 and aliasing. Go to the search engine and type in: "aliasing xl2" and moire xl2" That was actually what my very first post was about concerning my then brand new XL2. It very quickly became a non-issue with some tweaking and the realization that the severity of the aliasing is in the playback of the footage in the NLE window, not in the footage itself (at least in my case). Check it out.

January 30th, 2006, 06:30 PM	#5
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	OOPS! Nice spot, I did infact mean CRT! DOH!

January 31st, 2006, 05:50 PM	#7
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	White balance there was WAY too warm and a little over-exposed... compression hates red, has nothing to do with the XL2, even a $100K Varicam hates red. When you get in this situation, you can WB cool (to pink), take the color phase a notch or two toward green and turn down the set-up and master pedestal a little. In post you can add some chrom blur to help cover it as well. This effect is accentuated in FCP when working with 24P 2:3:3:2 timelines, dunno why but I always let the XL2 do the pull down in camera.... ash =o)

February 2nd, 2006, 04:28 AM	#8
Steve Madsen Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 111	Ash, I understand why Varicam hates Red...but why compression? Do you know something the rest of us don't?

February 2nd, 2006, 02:31 PM	#9
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	I am sure someone could talk more techy nerdy than me but reds just dont like video and compression just makes it worse. Varicam is fine on plain red but cast a shadow or going into a burgandy and you will see lots of noise... ash =o)

February 3rd, 2006, 06:17 AM	#10
Steve Madsen Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 111	Damn, I went too subtle. Thanks for the info Ash...though I was playing on the Red camera, rather than the colour. OT, I've appreciated your info over time on adjusting the xl2. I've just gotten some gorgeous footage purely adjusting in cam. Rich colours, nice contrast...almost looks "filmlike", er "DVXlike", ahem...it just looks good! And I've still got all that lovely 16:9 res. Now to see the effects of desharpening...

February 4th, 2006, 04:29 AM	#11
David Herman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: gloucestershire uk Posts: 93	A 2c worth from another xl2 struggler. I had a similar ghastly red aliasing experience recently. Was my first time after shooting a lot of fairly satisfactory footage. Lots of pondering till I realised I had changed a setting, I believe it was knee, (?) to low. Restored my settings and the problem vanished. As an ex-XL1 user I am aware of the time (I don't have) that needs to be devoted to playing with the camera to suss out the best settings.

February 4th, 2006, 12:25 PM	#12
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	A low knee will keep your highlights in check... unless you WANT the super-contrasty look... low knee is best... ash =o)