Micro35 and XL2

Matthew Nayman · January 10th, 2006, 01:39 PM

I already do own the 3X, and in experience, it weighs less and is quite abit shorter than the Mammoth 20X :P

Doesn't the lens have to be zoomed in 100% anyway?

Henry Cho · January 10th, 2006, 02:46 PM

just checked on the redrock forum, in the public area, so you should be able to access this and other helpful info. the 3x lens is not recommended.

Patrick Pai · January 11th, 2006, 04:06 PM

Hello,

I just received my Micro 35 adapter. Been working on adjusting and customizing it, no footage acquired yet.

You can't use the 3X lens, as the lens can't zoom in far enough. I have an EF/XL adapter, and using an EF zoom lens, I've measured the required focal length to be about 20mm. This is why the 3X won't work -- not enough reach. Even at 20mm, there still may be some light falloff at the corners of the recorded frame, I can't tell if this is the case through the viewfinder, but will have an answer after I capture some footage. If you want a more compact setup (as I do), you can use a prime lens with the EF/XL adapter, instead of the 20X.

I believe most of the examples on the Redrock site are shot with 35mm still-photo lenses. Someone on their boards commented that you can see the lens "breathe" when the focus is racked, which is a characteristic of most still photo lenses. (Breathing is when the zoom changes slightly when changing focus). I don't think most viewers would notice this, and I'm certainly not spending $20K to $40K on a cinema prime lens to avoid this issue.

Pat

Henry Cho · January 11th, 2006, 07:51 PM

nice one pat. i would think the ef adapter's magnification factor would make the attached lens too long, no? i mean, even if you could focus on the gg properly, wouldn't you lose the wide angle of view from say a 17mm lens up front?

in any case, i saw some stills from the updated m3 glass on the redrock forum today. there's a scene that was only lit with a lighter and computer monitor turned on, and the image was quite beautiful. please keep us updated. thanks...

Matthew Nayman · January 12th, 2006, 09:23 AM

has anyone confirmed the EF adaptor working with the Micro35 and a 20mm lens? I am jsut more concerned about how much scpae the 20X lens takes up.

Andrew C. Stewart · January 12th, 2006, 11:45 AM

Matthew-

I'm afraid I don't know what you're asking...

As far as the XL2 and M2 (the official name of the adapter) are concerned, I have no problem with the size of the rig. The rod support that RedRock sells (18inch 15mm rods) is more than adequate to support the xl2, 20x lens, and adapter.

If you are considering just using the EF adapter, you should know that you really can't achieve film-like DOF with just the EF, canon lenses, and XL2 combination.

If you are thinking of using the EF in conjunction with the M2 (not sure how that is possible), remember that the EF will skew the focal length of whatever lenses you are using.

Andrew C. Stewart · January 12th, 2006, 11:48 AM

To all concerned-

The image from the M2 with the new CineScreen is really quite incredible. I hope to have some footage up somewhere (or at least some stills) by the end of the weekend so you can see for yourself.

Having seen clips using other 35mm adapters, I can say without a doubt that the M2 is as good or better than anything else out there right now, especially for the cost.

Matthew Nayman · January 12th, 2006, 12:18 PM

Andrew, I think you misunderstood me,

I am aware of how the Redrock Micro35 works to achieve DOF.

I am basically a handheld shooter, so having the extra weight of the 20X in the front is quite a disadvantage.

Concerning the EF adapter, I was reffering to Patrick's post about using the EF adapter and a 20mm lens attached to the XL2 body, then using the Micro35. Because a 20mm lens and Ef adapter would be far shorter and lighter than the 20x lens. I am curious if this would work.
I understand about the 7.6 magnification and such... But if you have a wide lens on the ef adapter then zoom it in the GG image plane, would that work as a relay lens? or is the 20X really the only option?

Patrick Pai · January 12th, 2006, 04:13 PM

Matthew has it right. The 20mm + EF/XL adapter is a substitute for the 20X as a relay lens. The Micro35 is mounted in front of the 20mm+EF/XL.

I used my 16-35L EF zoom lens to come up with the 20mm figure, so the measurement was made with an EF photographic lens. There is NO magnification factor in this focal length specification -- a 20mm lens is a 20mm lens. The XL2 does crop the image due to its small sensor, but all this means is that you need much smaller focal-length lenses to achieve the same field of view as a full-frame camera.

Just to note: the 20X zoom lens has a focal length of 5.4mm to 108mm. The 3X wide angle lens has a focal length of 3.4mm to 10.2mm.

Just to summarize, the potential benefits of a 20mm f/1.8 EF prime lens as a relay lens are:
1) More compact
2) Sharper image (prime vs. zoom)
3) More sensitive (f/1.8 vs. f/2.8)

Of these possible benefits, #2 may not be true for the Sigma prime I'm looking at, as I've read that this lens is a little soft wide open. OTOH, our images are only 720X480 pixels, while the softness was observed on 8-12 megapixel still cameras. #3 also may not be true, as the achromat (close-up lens) shipped with the Micro35 has a small diameter, on the order of 50mm, which may restrict the light entering the relay lens (72mm filter diameter for the 20X, 82mm for the Sigma).

I'm going to be investigating this, however I can't do it for the next 3-4 weeks. I'd be glad to report my results when I get them.

Pat

ps: Matthew, you may find handheld to be difficult with the Micro 35 rails, as I seem to remember that they extend under the shoulder mount. (I'll check it when I get home). You may need to add on a shoulder support such as: http://www.varizoom.com/products/sup...vzdvrigxl.html
to shoot handheld.

Matthew Nayman · January 12th, 2006, 10:02 PM

Thanks pat,

I expected as much from the supports, but I am used to handholding Arriflex BL's without a support, so that's fine. I have shoulders of steel (or at least Magnesium).

Now, all that is left is to solve the upsidedown image IN the viewfinder. How much does an second viewfinder cost? Does cannon offer the stock viewfinder for sale?

Matt

Patrick Pai · January 16th, 2006, 07:18 PM

Hi Matthew,

Here's a photo of my current setup. I was wrong about the rails, they do not go under the shoulder pad unless you set them up "short" (slide them in that direction). I've tried handholding the unit, and it's not bad. Weight is definitely very front heavy, depending on the "front" (objective?) lens that is mounted. The only problem is that the whole setup doesn't sit on the ground well if you put it down. It tends to flop over on its side.

Note that the 20mm f/1.8 prime I'm looking at is bigger than the 50mm prime shown here (spec. is about 3.5" X 3.5", L X D).

http://static.flickr.com/37/87599587_d298149141_o.jpg

Pat

Matthew Nayman · January 16th, 2006, 08:27 PM

Heythat looks great Patrick. If I can ask, how much did the whole setup cost? And how is it working for handheld wiht the image being flipped?

Patrick Pai · January 16th, 2006, 08:48 PM

Matthew,

Approximate costs are:
1. Redrock Micro35 + Shim kit: $885
2. EF/XL Adapter: $420
3. 20mm f/1.8 Sigma (relay lens): $380
4. 35mm SLR lenses: ???

I don't have prices for #4 because I've realized that I'm going to use Nikon primes instead of my Canon L zooms. Primarily because I realize that I want manual aperature control, and the Nikons seem to allow this. I'll be looking for used glass first. It seems a little pricey at first, but when compared to a mini35 I felt it was very reasonable. I hope to get Redrock's follow focus when it is available (should be this month or next), and perhaps a Redrock mattebox/shade if they produce that soon.

I haven't operated it handheld. I plan on shooting nearly everything on a tripod or a jib. I do have a 7" Panasonic monitor + Nebtek battery adapter + varizoom hotshoe mount. I still need a way to flip the monitor over -- I may just fabricate something for that. The Panasonic isn't quite good enough for accurate focus. I may look into the Redrock software that allows you to use your laptop as a reference monitor.

Pat

Matthew Nayman · January 16th, 2006, 09:41 PM

Sounds good to me. Does anyone know the price of a colour viewfinder for the XL2 from Canon? Would consider buying a second viewifnder and flipping the LCd screen backwards within the casing.

Tony Davies-Patrick · January 17th, 2006, 11:25 AM

Tom Camarda - discusses the Redrock Micro MR being used with Nikkor lenses during the making of "Busgirl" in the section - 'Get a Film look with 35mm lenses'. Check the link url here:

http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvi...tech/5451.html

Here are some sample stills from films using the Redrock adapter:

http://www.redrockmicro.com/samples.html

Very interesting results...!

January 11th, 2006, 04:06 PM	#18
Patrick Pai New Boot Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 18	3X lens will not work Hello, I just received my Micro 35 adapter. Been working on adjusting and customizing it, no footage acquired yet. You can't use the 3X lens, as the lens can't zoom in far enough. I have an EF/XL adapter, and using an EF zoom lens, I've measured the required focal length to be about 20mm. This is why the 3X won't work -- not enough reach. Even at 20mm, there still may be some light falloff at the corners of the recorded frame, I can't tell if this is the case through the viewfinder, but will have an answer after I capture some footage. If you want a more compact setup (as I do), you can use a prime lens with the EF/XL adapter, instead of the 20X. I believe most of the examples on the Redrock site are shot with 35mm still-photo lenses. Someone on their boards commented that you can see the lens "breathe" when the focus is racked, which is a characteristic of most still photo lenses. (Breathing is when the zoom changes slightly when changing focus). I don't think most viewers would notice this, and I'm certainly not spending $20K to $40K on a cinema prime lens to avoid this issue. Pat

January 12th, 2006, 04:13 PM	#24
Patrick Pai New Boot Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 18	20mm Lens Matthew has it right. The 20mm + EF/XL adapter is a substitute for the 20X as a relay lens. The Micro35 is mounted in front of the 20mm+EF/XL. I used my 16-35L EF zoom lens to come up with the 20mm figure, so the measurement was made with an EF photographic lens. There is NO magnification factor in this focal length specification -- a 20mm lens is a 20mm lens. The XL2 does crop the image due to its small sensor, but all this means is that you need much smaller focal-length lenses to achieve the same field of view as a full-frame camera. Just to note: the 20X zoom lens has a focal length of 5.4mm to 108mm. The 3X wide angle lens has a focal length of 3.4mm to 10.2mm. Just to summarize, the potential benefits of a 20mm f/1.8 EF prime lens as a relay lens are: 1) More compact 2) Sharper image (prime vs. zoom) 3) More sensitive (f/1.8 vs. f/2.8) Of these possible benefits, #2 may not be true for the Sigma prime I'm looking at, as I've read that this lens is a little soft wide open. OTOH, our images are only 720X480 pixels, while the softness was observed on 8-12 megapixel still cameras. #3 also may not be true, as the achromat (close-up lens) shipped with the Micro35 has a small diameter, on the order of 50mm, which may restrict the light entering the relay lens (72mm filter diameter for the 20X, 82mm for the Sigma). I'm going to be investigating this, however I can't do it for the next 3-4 weeks. I'd be glad to report my results when I get them. Pat ps: Matthew, you may find handheld to be difficult with the Micro 35 rails, as I seem to remember that they extend under the shoulder mount. (I'll check it when I get home). You may need to add on a shoulder support such as: http://www.varizoom.com/products/sup...vzdvrigxl.html to shoot handheld.

January 16th, 2006, 07:18 PM	#26
Patrick Pai New Boot Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 18	Photo of my setup Hi Matthew, Here's a photo of my current setup. I was wrong about the rails, they do not go under the shoulder pad unless you set them up "short" (slide them in that direction). I've tried handholding the unit, and it's not bad. Weight is definitely very front heavy, depending on the "front" (objective?) lens that is mounted. The only problem is that the whole setup doesn't sit on the ground well if you put it down. It tends to flop over on its side. Note that the 20mm f/1.8 prime I'm looking at is bigger than the 50mm prime shown here (spec. is about 3.5" X 3.5", L X D). http://static.flickr.com/37/87599587_d298149141_o.jpg Pat

January 16th, 2006, 08:48 PM	#28
Patrick Pai New Boot Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 18	Approx. Costs Matthew, Approximate costs are: 1. Redrock Micro35 + Shim kit: $885 2. EF/XL Adapter: $420 3. 20mm f/1.8 Sigma (relay lens): $380 4. 35mm SLR lenses: ??? I don't have prices for #4 because I've realized that I'm going to use Nikon primes instead of my Canon L zooms. Primarily because I realize that I want manual aperature control, and the Nikons seem to allow this. I'll be looking for used glass first. It seems a little pricey at first, but when compared to a mini35 I felt it was very reasonable. I hope to get Redrock's follow focus when it is available (should be this month or next), and perhaps a Redrock mattebox/shade if they produce that soon. I haven't operated it handheld. I plan on shooting nearly everything on a tripod or a jib. I do have a 7" Panasonic monitor + Nebtek battery adapter + varizoom hotshoe mount. I still need a way to flip the monitor over -- I may just fabricate something for that. The Panasonic isn't quite good enough for accurate focus. I may look into the Redrock software that allows you to use your laptop as a reference monitor. Pat

January 17th, 2006, 11:25 AM	#30
Tony Davies-Patrick Trustee Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Worldwide Posts: 1,589	Tom Camarda - discusses the Redrock Micro MR being used with Nikkor lenses during the making of "Busgirl" in the section - 'Get a Film look with 35mm lenses'. Check the link url here: http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvi...tech/5451.html Here are some sample stills from films using the Redrock adapter: http://www.redrockmicro.com/samples.html Very interesting results...! __________________ www.WILDCARP.com www.NIKON.me.uk

January 10th, 2006, 01:39 PM	#16
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	I already do own the 3X, and in experience, it weighs less and is quite abit shorter than the Mammoth 20X :P Doesn't the lens have to be zoomed in 100% anyway?

January 10th, 2006, 02:46 PM	#17
Henry Cho Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 516	just checked on the redrock forum, in the public area, so you should be able to access this and other helpful info. the 3x lens is not recommended.

January 11th, 2006, 07:51 PM	#19
Henry Cho Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 516	nice one pat. i would think the ef adapter's magnification factor would make the attached lens too long, no? i mean, even if you could focus on the gg properly, wouldn't you lose the wide angle of view from say a 17mm lens up front? in any case, i saw some stills from the updated m3 glass on the redrock forum today. there's a scene that was only lit with a lighter and computer monitor turned on, and the image was quite beautiful. please keep us updated. thanks...

January 12th, 2006, 09:23 AM	#20
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	has anyone confirmed the EF adaptor working with the Micro35 and a 20mm lens? I am jsut more concerned about how much scpae the 20X lens takes up.

January 12th, 2006, 11:45 AM	#21
Andrew C. Stewart Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ponca City, OK Posts: 61	Matthew- I'm afraid I don't know what you're asking... As far as the XL2 and M2 (the official name of the adapter) are concerned, I have no problem with the size of the rig. The rod support that RedRock sells (18inch 15mm rods) is more than adequate to support the xl2, 20x lens, and adapter. If you are considering just using the EF adapter, you should know that you really can't achieve film-like DOF with just the EF, canon lenses, and XL2 combination. If you are thinking of using the EF in conjunction with the M2 (not sure how that is possible), remember that the EF will skew the focal length of whatever lenses you are using.

January 12th, 2006, 11:48 AM	#22
Andrew C. Stewart Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ponca City, OK Posts: 61	To all concerned- The image from the M2 with the new CineScreen is really quite incredible. I hope to have some footage up somewhere (or at least some stills) by the end of the weekend so you can see for yourself. Having seen clips using other 35mm adapters, I can say without a doubt that the M2 is as good or better than anything else out there right now, especially for the cost.

January 12th, 2006, 12:18 PM	#23
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	Andrew, I think you misunderstood me, I am aware of how the Redrock Micro35 works to achieve DOF. I am basically a handheld shooter, so having the extra weight of the 20X in the front is quite a disadvantage. Concerning the EF adapter, I was reffering to Patrick's post about using the EF adapter and a 20mm lens attached to the XL2 body, then using the Micro35. Because a 20mm lens and Ef adapter would be far shorter and lighter than the 20x lens. I am curious if this would work. I understand about the 7.6 magnification and such... But if you have a wide lens on the ef adapter then zoom it in the GG image plane, would that work as a relay lens? or is the 20X really the only option?

January 12th, 2006, 10:02 PM	#25
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	Thanks pat, I expected as much from the supports, but I am used to handholding Arriflex BL's without a support, so that's fine. I have shoulders of steel (or at least Magnesium). Now, all that is left is to solve the upsidedown image IN the viewfinder. How much does an second viewfinder cost? Does cannon offer the stock viewfinder for sale? Matt

January 16th, 2006, 08:27 PM	#27
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	Heythat looks great Patrick. If I can ask, how much did the whole setup cost? And how is it working for handheld wiht the image being flipped?

January 16th, 2006, 09:41 PM	#29
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	Sounds good to me. Does anyone know the price of a colour viewfinder for the XL2 from Canon? Would consider buying a second viewifnder and flipping the LCd screen backwards within the casing.