What is frame mode at DVinfo.net

Chris Fritsche · October 21st, 2005, 03:00 PM

I have posted a couple of pics trying to figure out how to get rid of jagged edges. Everyone is telling me to shoot in frame mode. I have looked in the manual, and it doesn't mention anything called frame mode.
However one person told me that 30p was fram mode and 24p and 60i are not frame mode. is this correct.

http://img454.imageshack.us/my.php?i...enshot40hl.jpg

Chris Fritsche · October 21st, 2005, 03:14 PM

Ok I am very confused now. In another forum I am in for fan film, I got this in response to my post

"Shoot on something besides DV.

Sorry to say, the pixellation in THAT image is due to the nature of DV color sampling and cannot be avoided (except perhaps by hacking the camera, as some people are attempting to do). Usually in motion and at a regular television resolution you won't really detect that. But it's one of the things that can make DV footage so difficult to key.

Alternatively, you could use the Magic Bullet Suite to do some deartifacting and extrapolate cleaner detail back into the image, but it's rather expensive for the no-budget project.

M. Scott"

What does he mean when he says to shot in something other than "DV"
I thought this camera was DV on every setting?
Does he mean to shot on Hi8 or VHS? How is it others are getting awesome footage off their XL2, but I am having no luck?

Chris Fritsche · October 21st, 2005, 04:05 PM

please tell me I am doing something wrong, and that I didn't waste $4,000 on a camcorder that won't get any better than this:

http://img348.imageshack.us/my.php?i...enshot53ht.jpg

Chris Fritsche · October 21st, 2005, 05:31 PM

can somebody "slow this down" and translate it into "i'm not a professional and I don't understand the termanology" english

I think what he is getting at is I need to be in 30p, but what does he mean when he says "(deinterlacing at 30fps, "pulldown removal" at 24fps)'

(REPLY FROM OTHER FORUM)

This is a matter of the technology used to capture images in a video camera. This is happening in every frame of your video that is not set to 30P, you just don't see it unless the subject is moving quickly because the pixels blend together nicely.

Ryan shoots always on Frame Mode on his GL1.

Video is comprised of "fields" that display and record alternatively. Each frame of video technically has two frames worth of image blended together -- hence that banding. Video frames are like this: A1A2:B1B2:C1C2 and so on.

When shooting 24P mode, the 2:3:3:2 refers to the way those 24 frames are dispersed among 60 fields to make 30 frames so you can display it on a standard television. The first frame of film is used to make 2 fields. The next makes three fields. The next makes another three fields, and the next two fields, making four film frames into five video frames.

If you label four film frames A:B:C:D, transferring them to fields in a 2:3:3:2 pattern looks like this:

AA:BB:BC:CC:DD

What you are seeing is the different images superimposed on each other on alternating lines of the frame. You need to remove that (deinterlacing at 30fps, "pulldown removal" at 24fps) and then you will have clean video.

M. Scott

Justine Haupt · October 21st, 2005, 06:20 PM

To answer the original question, frame mode is what they called 30p on the XL1 and XL1s.

Now that the XL2 is out, and most people who use the camera seem to use it in progressive mode, a name that differentiates between the standard mode and progreeive mode is not needed, as progressive seems to have become the standard. Therefore, I think it would be just as valid to say the XL2 doesn't have frame movie mode, or just as valid to say that both 24p and 30p are frame modes.

A short answer to the other questions follows:

No, you didn't waste $4,000... this is a complex camera and will take some time to learn to use right. A backround in 35mm SLRs helped me alot.

In an attempt to make things simpler for you in regards to the whole even/odd fields etc thing, just shoot in 24p with 2:3 pulldown (default) or 30p, and download some of the presets available here to start with. IMHO, proper use of the presets make this camera come alive. I would say that the ones available here are much better than using the camera "cold", and you will need to make your own presets to get an image you truely like. Did you wath the "XL2 Features Tour"? It will help if you didn't, but you'll notice that even most of the footage in that video isn't as good as you should expect to obtain, because they puposely avoided use of filters et cetera to show the camera's "out ot the box" performance. You have to remember that a professional production team will have all sorts of gizmos on the camera... a matte box with vast assortment of filters, follow focus, the advanced audio shoe etc. There's a reason for all that.

You'll also want some filters (polarizing and UV are what I call the absoulte bare essentials, if you shoot outdoors alot).

I've never had digital artifacting like in that screenshot... what editing software are you using?

Chris Fritsche · October 21st, 2005, 06:28 PM

I am using FCP, i am sure I need to adjust my capture presets, but one thing at a time.
What presets are you talking about, and do I download unto my camera, or do I use them with my NLE?

Justine Haupt · October 21st, 2005, 06:35 PM

Wow, quick response (just finished editing my message agin) ;).

The presets are what allow you to actually change the image settings in the XL2. The term 'preset' is perhaps misleading, because they actually aren't set to anything when you get the camera. You have to enter in the data you want for different lighting conditions (for example, sunny, cloudy and indoors), and than you can set the camera to work with one of those three settings depending on the conditions. They're only 'presets' in the sense that they can't be changed in real time (during recording).

At the top of this forum, you'll see two "sticky" threads, the first two, in fact. The first one has a free program that lets you transfer preset setting between the computer and the XL2 via firewire. The second thread has some pretty good sample presets to download and try. Now, I didn't realize you were on a mac (which is great, FCP should be perfect)... but I'm not sure this software I'm talking about works on mac.

Have you tried adjusting the presets at all? The first week I had the camera, I didn't realize I wasn't using the presets right (I would adjust them, but I didn't know I actually had to *activate* them by presing the "preset" button). Under the top handgrip, you use one button to choose between the presets and the other to activate them.

If you definately can't get the software on the mac, I can list for you the presets I use for cloudy and sunny days, and you could enter them manually to see how you like it, if you want.

Daniel Wojtowicz · October 21st, 2005, 07:23 PM

Also the reason why you are getting those jagged white lines is because your footage was shot in 60i(60 frames per sec interlaced). You would either have to deinterlacethe footage or shoot in either 24p or 30p. Also the faster characters move in your scene the more blurry they will become. Also if you do no have enough lighting you will loose some quality as well.

Chris Fritsche · October 21st, 2005, 07:30 PM

ok I found the presets on the camera. It list 4, and it was set ot off. Are those 4 already set to something? If so what is each good for. I don't seem to be able to open the downloaded presets on a Mac. it is a exe file. Does anyone have a list of what each preset is and the individual setting are, I can set them manually if I need to.

Concerning the lighting issue, I thought overcast days were the best, because the difference betweeh white and black is at a shorter range, am I wrong on that?

How might I go about shooting fast speeds?

Richard Hunter · October 22nd, 2005, 01:29 AM

Hi Chris. The presets allow you to adjust many aspects of the XL2 image, and you should definitely try playing around with them to see what they do, but unfortunately they will not help you with the interlacing artifacts you are seeing.

Shooting 24p or 30p will totally eliminate interlacing artifacts, but since you mention "shooting fast speeds", these settings might not give you what you want. If you are shooting fast action a lot of the time, 30p and especially 24p will tend to produce more judder in the moving image, because the frame rate (number of pictures per second) is too slow to capture fast motion smoothly. You can reduce the judder by using a slower shutter speed, but this will give more motion blur.

60i will capture twice as many pictures per second, therefore it produces smoother looking movements and should be more suitable for fast action subjects. When you are editing 60i, you will see interlacing artifacts (like in your example jpgs) on your computer screen, however if your project settings are correct, these artifacts will not show in your final video.

Richard

Justine Haupt · October 22nd, 2005, 10:40 AM

Also, you could do the opposite and increase shutter speed in 24 or 30p mode to reduce or elimiate motion blur, but as richard said, the movement might look more juddy... tradeoffs.

I'm personally under the mindset that if 24fps is good enough for feature films (even the fast action ones), it's good enough for what people like us might shoot. Unfortunately, though, because we're not actually shooting on film (which is naturally "smooth"), 24p footage we shoot will look rougher. I've not really considered it a big problem, though... maybe I'm biased, but I really don't like video interlacing. I don't even consider 24p or 30p video... it's not 60hz, so it's something that's not video. Digital film is more like it, but that's a lot of syllables!

Jimmy McKenzie · October 22nd, 2005, 01:15 PM

But before you drive yourself nuts answering your own posts every 15 minutes, please take the time and read the manual. It will help you understand the terms used here by other XL2 owners.

There is no shortcut to this knowledge.

But you are scrambling so fast you can't even take the time to end an interrogative sentence with the correct punctuation!

Slow down and read. Your learning curve will happen faster and the knowledge will stick.

David Morton · October 23rd, 2005, 01:11 AM

Chris, you asked,
"Does anyone have a list of what each preset is and the individual setting are, I can set them manually if I need to?"

The answer to your question is:
Download the presets and view them with a text editor e.g. notepad,
you can then see all the settings used.

David

Ash Greyson · October 23rd, 2005, 01:19 PM

First off, do you see these problems as defined when viewing on TV? LCD monitors tend to accentuate interlacing artifacts. The XL2 is a very advanced camera that lacks the training wheels of most pro-sumer cams.

To really help you we need to know your settings.

- what frame rate are you shooting? 24P,24PA,30P or 60i
- 16:9 I assume?
- shutter speed? Should be 1/48th for 24P
- what mode are you in? Full auto, TV, etc.
- any custom pre-sets?

The examples you have posted are worst case scenario for video in general and surely for DV. DV does not like intense blues or reds. The XL2 handles them better than any camera in its class but adding some chroma blur in post can help even more.

ash =o)

October 21st, 2005, 03:00 PM	#1
Chris Fritsche Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston, TX (Cypress to be exact) Posts: 169	What is frame mode I have posted a couple of pics trying to figure out how to get rid of jagged edges. Everyone is telling me to shoot in frame mode. I have looked in the manual, and it doesn't mention anything called frame mode. However one person told me that 30p was fram mode and 24p and 60i are not frame mode. is this correct. http://img454.imageshack.us/my.php?i...enshot40hl.jpg

October 21st, 2005, 06:20 PM	#5
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	To answer the original question, frame mode is what they called 30p on the XL1 and XL1s. Now that the XL2 is out, and most people who use the camera seem to use it in progressive mode, a name that differentiates between the standard mode and progreeive mode is not needed, as progressive seems to have become the standard. Therefore, I think it would be just as valid to say the XL2 doesn't have frame movie mode, or just as valid to say that both 24p and 30p are frame modes. A short answer to the other questions follows: No, you didn't waste $4,000... this is a complex camera and will take some time to learn to use right. A backround in 35mm SLRs helped me alot. In an attempt to make things simpler for you in regards to the whole even/odd fields etc thing, just shoot in 24p with 2:3 pulldown (default) or 30p, and download some of the presets available here to start with. IMHO, proper use of the presets make this camera come alive. I would say that the ones available here are much better than using the camera "cold", and you will need to make your own presets to get an image you truely like. Did you wath the "XL2 Features Tour"? It will help if you didn't, but you'll notice that even most of the footage in that video isn't as good as you should expect to obtain, because they puposely avoided use of filters et cetera to show the camera's "out ot the box" performance. You have to remember that a professional production team will have all sorts of gizmos on the camera... a matte box with vast assortment of filters, follow focus, the advanced audio shoe etc. There's a reason for all that. You'll also want some filters (polarizing and UV are what I call the absoulte bare essentials, if you shoot outdoors alot). I've never had digital artifacting like in that screenshot... what editing software are you using? __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

October 21st, 2005, 06:35 PM	#7
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	Wow, quick response (just finished editing my message agin) ;). The presets are what allow you to actually change the image settings in the XL2. The term 'preset' is perhaps misleading, because they actually aren't set to anything when you get the camera. You have to enter in the data you want for different lighting conditions (for example, sunny, cloudy and indoors), and than you can set the camera to work with one of those three settings depending on the conditions. They're only 'presets' in the sense that they can't be changed in real time (during recording). At the top of this forum, you'll see two "sticky" threads, the first two, in fact. The first one has a free program that lets you transfer preset setting between the computer and the XL2 via firewire. The second thread has some pretty good sample presets to download and try. Now, I didn't realize you were on a mac (which is great, FCP should be perfect)... but I'm not sure this software I'm talking about works on mac. Have you tried adjusting the presets at all? The first week I had the camera, I didn't realize I wasn't using the presets right (I would adjust them, but I didn't know I actually had to activate them by presing the "preset" button). Under the top handgrip, you use one button to choose between the presets and the other to activate them. If you definately can't get the software on the mac, I can list for you the presets I use for cloudy and sunny days, and you could enter them manually to see how you like it, if you want. __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

October 22nd, 2005, 10:40 AM	#11
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	Also, you could do the opposite and increase shutter speed in 24 or 30p mode to reduce or elimiate motion blur, but as richard said, the movement might look more juddy... tradeoffs. I'm personally under the mindset that if 24fps is good enough for feature films (even the fast action ones), it's good enough for what people like us might shoot. Unfortunately, though, because we're not actually shooting on film (which is naturally "smooth"), 24p footage we shoot will look rougher. I've not really considered it a big problem, though... maybe I'm biased, but I really don't like video interlacing. I don't even consider 24p or 30p video... it's not 60hz, so it's something that's not video. Digital film is more like it, but that's a lot of syllables! __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

October 22nd, 2005, 01:15 PM	#12
Jimmy McKenzie Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Waterloo Ontario Posts: 721	Chris, you have an excellent camera. But before you drive yourself nuts answering your own posts every 15 minutes, please take the time and read the manual. It will help you understand the terms used here by other XL2 owners. There is no shortcut to this knowledge. But you are scrambling so fast you can't even take the time to end an interrogative sentence with the correct punctuation! Slow down and read. Your learning curve will happen faster and the knowledge will stick.

October 21st, 2005, 03:14 PM	#2
Chris Fritsche Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston, TX (Cypress to be exact) Posts: 169	Ok I am very confused now. In another forum I am in for fan film, I got this in response to my post "Shoot on something besides DV. Sorry to say, the pixellation in THAT image is due to the nature of DV color sampling and cannot be avoided (except perhaps by hacking the camera, as some people are attempting to do). Usually in motion and at a regular television resolution you won't really detect that. But it's one of the things that can make DV footage so difficult to key. Alternatively, you could use the Magic Bullet Suite to do some deartifacting and extrapolate cleaner detail back into the image, but it's rather expensive for the no-budget project. M. Scott" What does he mean when he says to shot in something other than "DV" I thought this camera was DV on every setting? Does he mean to shot on Hi8 or VHS? How is it others are getting awesome footage off their XL2, but I am having no luck?

October 21st, 2005, 04:05 PM	#3
Chris Fritsche Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston, TX (Cypress to be exact) Posts: 169	please tell me I am doing something wrong, and that I didn't waste $4,000 on a camcorder that won't get any better than this: http://img348.imageshack.us/my.php?i...enshot53ht.jpg

October 21st, 2005, 05:31 PM	#4
Chris Fritsche Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston, TX (Cypress to be exact) Posts: 169	can somebody "slow this down" and translate it into "i'm not a professional and I don't understand the termanology" english I think what he is getting at is I need to be in 30p, but what does he mean when he says "(deinterlacing at 30fps, "pulldown removal" at 24fps)' (REPLY FROM OTHER FORUM) This is a matter of the technology used to capture images in a video camera. This is happening in every frame of your video that is not set to 30P, you just don't see it unless the subject is moving quickly because the pixels blend together nicely. Ryan shoots always on Frame Mode on his GL1. Video is comprised of "fields" that display and record alternatively. Each frame of video technically has two frames worth of image blended together -- hence that banding. Video frames are like this: A1A2:B1B2:C1C2 and so on. When shooting 24P mode, the 2:3:3:2 refers to the way those 24 frames are dispersed among 60 fields to make 30 frames so you can display it on a standard television. The first frame of film is used to make 2 fields. The next makes three fields. The next makes another three fields, and the next two fields, making four film frames into five video frames. If you label four film frames A:B:C:D, transferring them to fields in a 2:3:3:2 pattern looks like this: AA:BB:BC:CC:DD What you are seeing is the different images superimposed on each other on alternating lines of the frame. You need to remove that (deinterlacing at 30fps, "pulldown removal" at 24fps) and then you will have clean video. M. Scott

October 21st, 2005, 06:28 PM	#6
Chris Fritsche Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston, TX (Cypress to be exact) Posts: 169	I am using FCP, i am sure I need to adjust my capture presets, but one thing at a time. What presets are you talking about, and do I download unto my camera, or do I use them with my NLE?

October 21st, 2005, 07:23 PM	#8
Daniel Wojtowicz New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 20	Also the reason why you are getting those jagged white lines is because your footage was shot in 60i(60 frames per sec interlaced). You would either have to deinterlacethe footage or shoot in either 24p or 30p. Also the faster characters move in your scene the more blurry they will become. Also if you do no have enough lighting you will loose some quality as well.

October 21st, 2005, 07:30 PM	#9
Chris Fritsche Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston, TX (Cypress to be exact) Posts: 169	ok I found the presets on the camera. It list 4, and it was set ot off. Are those 4 already set to something? If so what is each good for. I don't seem to be able to open the downloaded presets on a Mac. it is a exe file. Does anyone have a list of what each preset is and the individual setting are, I can set them manually if I need to. Concerning the lighting issue, I thought overcast days were the best, because the difference betweeh white and black is at a shorter range, am I wrong on that? How might I go about shooting fast speeds?

October 22nd, 2005, 01:29 AM	#10
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	Hi Chris. The presets allow you to adjust many aspects of the XL2 image, and you should definitely try playing around with them to see what they do, but unfortunately they will not help you with the interlacing artifacts you are seeing. Shooting 24p or 30p will totally eliminate interlacing artifacts, but since you mention "shooting fast speeds", these settings might not give you what you want. If you are shooting fast action a lot of the time, 30p and especially 24p will tend to produce more judder in the moving image, because the frame rate (number of pictures per second) is too slow to capture fast motion smoothly. You can reduce the judder by using a slower shutter speed, but this will give more motion blur. 60i will capture twice as many pictures per second, therefore it produces smoother looking movements and should be more suitable for fast action subjects. When you are editing 60i, you will see interlacing artifacts (like in your example jpgs) on your computer screen, however if your project settings are correct, these artifacts will not show in your final video. Richard

October 23rd, 2005, 01:11 AM	#13
David Morton Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: N. Ireland Posts: 36	Chris, you asked, "Does anyone have a list of what each preset is and the individual setting are, I can set them manually if I need to?" The answer to your question is: Download the presets and view them with a text editor e.g. notepad, you can then see all the settings used. David

October 23rd, 2005, 01:19 PM	#14
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	First off, do you see these problems as defined when viewing on TV? LCD monitors tend to accentuate interlacing artifacts. The XL2 is a very advanced camera that lacks the training wheels of most pro-sumer cams. To really help you we need to know your settings. - what frame rate are you shooting? 24P,24PA,30P or 60i - 16:9 I assume? - shutter speed? Should be 1/48th for 24P - what mode are you in? Full auto, TV, etc. - any custom pre-sets? The examples you have posted are worst case scenario for video in general and surely for DV. DV does not like intense blues or reds. The XL2 handles them better than any camera in its class but adding some chroma blur in post can help even more. ash =o)