HD A backwards step.

Randall Leong · February 26th, 2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

I am not sure what "affordable" is. Maybe if you could quantify what pricing is affordable.

I was looking around today for a friend who's interested in Blu-Ray production and the prices I found looked like:

Samsung Blu-Ray player $89.
LG BluRay Burner $108
25GB BluRay discs $2.75

I wasn't able to buy a DVD player under $100 until quite recently. None of the DVD burners I purchased have EVER been below $150, and 25GB BluRay discs are cheaper than the miniDV tapes I last purchased. I adopted BluRay in mid 2008. My current costs to produce a BluRay are cheaper than my costs to produce a DVD when I made the move in mid-2008.

So, at what point do you call it "affordable"?

What's more, Blu-Ray remains expensive in some countries. In Australia, for example, everything, including both Blu-Ray and DVD, is a lot more expensive than here in the United States (even when accounting for the currency exchange rate between the two countries). So, instead of $150 for a good consumer Blu-Ray player here in the US, if we were in Australia we would have paid the equivalent of around $400 USD for that same player.

As for good consumer Blu-Ray players, we found some that do a poor job of deinterlacing 1080i content when the HDMI output is set to AUTO or 1080p. The only to fix that would be to manually force 1080i output - and most of the players which deinterlace 1080i incorrectly also do not automatically enable 24p when 24p-mastered Blu-Ray content is played with the player's output set to the 1080i mode (but will instead remain at 1080i, which will produce very noticeable judder when 24p content is played even through a 24p-capable set).

Owen Dawe · February 26th, 2010, 06:14 PM

Hi Guys,

Well this has all turned out most interesting. It's only natural we've all looked at the topic from our own perspective. The issue of cost is relevant as to what country we're in and what we're trying to do.

I failed to explain at the outset that I played a part in a group who launched a tv channel via satelite here in NZ. It was a huge team effort. I played a small part in studio production from camera to set construction, which included a live thirty minute nightly news. Then to a lesser degree field work and also outside live broadcast when needed over the past ten years. I recall in the early days I along with a group of volunteers made twentysix half hour shows on three Canon Xl 1 cameras, and Adobe Premier 5.6. Which seems a bit of a laugh now. We then made fifteen cafe type music shows on four xl 1 cameras.

So now as soon as we get on our feet we're faced with HD. Other channels are converting, so eventually so must we. As to extra cost. Studio sets need to be made to a higher standard as does makeup and lighting. There is the cost of a studio three camera conversion, plus ancillary equipment from control, to the editing suite.

As Randall Leong pointed out costs are higher 'down under'. Maybe that's why my remark at the outset Perrone why I said HD didn't look that 'crash hot' for what it involves. Householders and us are probably using cheaper gear.

I wonder if HD has really caught on that big here. Compared to say conversion to colour which was widely embraced. Sure some channels have gone HD and sales of consumer HD tv's is up. Because of the cost factor coupled with the economic downturn maybe we are not as quick on the uptake as you guys in the U.S.

Tony Davies-Patrick, loved your carp and under water material. And Perrone your footage looked great, loved the Perpetual Motion promo.

Thanks Tony and Chris for confirming that with the EF adaptor the full Canon lens range is available for HD use. I'd always thought so, but even alot of the sales people here say you can't. But then many seem to plug Sony now. Maybe Sony give them a bigger markup margin than Canon. Who knows? I've always been a loyal Canon fan going back as far as super8 film. I must admit the Sony I use from work produces a sharper image especially under low light. I'm a bit reluctant to jump ship, but then I guess Canon has never given me a big hug and said 'Thankyou" either.

Chris Soucy · February 26th, 2010, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owen Dawe

I wonder if HD has really caught on that big here

You better believe it.

As of Sep 2009 (latest figures available) Freeview HD had 113,936 boxes walk out of the stores, not bad considering there's only 177,917 Freeview Satellite customers and that includes many who simply cannot get Freeview HD as they're not in a suitable reception area.

With the recent roll out of the TivoHD/ Telecom service and their Digital HD PVR, things are cooking.

I must admit, Owen, I was gonna jump into this thread on a number of occasions, as I really disagreed with some of your opening post.

However, when it descended into the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" format, I thought better of it.

Interesting to hear your personal story tho', sounds like you've done some fascinating stuff.

CS

Perrone Ford · February 26th, 2010, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owen Dawe

And Perrone your footage looked great, loved the Perpetual Motion promo.

Ironic. It was downresed, motion stabilized, and slowed down in VirtualDub. Then compressed in h264 at 6:1.

Owen Dawe · February 26th, 2010, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Soucy

You better believe it.

As of Sep 2009 (latest figures available) Freeview HD had 113,936 boxes walk out of the stores, not bad considering there's only 177,917 Freeview Satellite customers and that includes many who simply cannot get Freeview HD as they're not in a suitable reception area.

With the recent roll out of the TivoHD/ Telecom service and their Digital HD PVR, things are cooking.

CS

Thanks Chris. I stand corrected on this one. We go up on Freeview Satellite 1st of April I think. We've been on Sky about eight years.

Alan Melville · February 28th, 2010, 04:36 AM

Hi Everyone,

I've just read the whole thread and found it to be quite interesting and emotionally charged in places....

Some background info....

I started shooting with a XL1 quite some time ago, I still own it, don't shoot with it any more but can't bear to part with it. I now shoot with two XL2's, each rig has it's own full compliment of lens's including a prime and telephoto EF lens so I'm able to shoot 2 camera shots with the same lens setup. I also have a Gates housing and at present have a couple of lights.

All my tapes are archived. I've yet to edit any sizable quantities even though I have an editing deck for viewing. This will be done when I'm too old to do the activities I do now. I'm 49. I sea kayak, explore remote areas by bicycle, hike and travel extensively by 4WD.

For the past year or so I've been watching, with interest, the growth, acceptance and perceived / real advantages of HD. The burning question, "Do I jump on board?"

Having been a bit of a 'Gear Head' most of my life, I can remember at 10 years of age, studying torches prior to a purchase!!!, one of the things I've learnt is that any new technology that hits the market, if robust, will only travel in one direction, forward.

I feel HD is robust, but still in it's infancy, I'm not being condescending, I just see this as a fact. I have no doubt you all have project experience of some description, be it Engineering, Mechanical, Film or simply chopping the firewood for the next week! All of these things have a common point, they start with all the work and planning stretched out in front of them, some seem truly humongous, however, systematicly they come together, and when completion approaches, it is often a collapsing entity, it's an exponential curve, I feel we're now at the start of the 'HD Project'. I believe, given another 5 years HD will hit that 'Exponential curve' and will move to heights none of us can imagine, it'll be truly exponential, feeding on it's own developments at an increasing rate. I feel Blu Ray will benefit in the same manner and will move to truly mass market proportions thus driving the features of the components up and the price down. The two need to be 'in sync' for the total package to be complete. At present I feel we're in the 'Grey Area', some of the public want, some don't, and most, at present, don't care. However, as with anything that is an improvement, those that don't care, will, and then the move will be on, because the corporations will see the financial sense of making the investments and we, the enthusiasts and professionals, will benefit. The truth, sadly, is that we're tied into the profit margins of the corporations... :(

Like all cutting edge technology, when it's first released, it's only in the very high end equipment, some of this equipment's customers are the likes of the worlds Military and Space Agencies, however, as advancements are made, even on the cutting edge, the "Lower edge" are moved into the public arena. There will be some that dispute this but in the late '80's a certain cigarette packet name on a beach in Western Australia could be read from a satellite!!

As an average individual who only uses his cameras for his own purpose, i.e. not for an income, I have to be mindful of the cost of upgrading my whole system. Whilst I will bite the bullet one day in the future I feel the time isn't quite right at present but I'm eternally grateful to those of you who embrace and purchase the new concepts, as it's you who get it out there to the viewing public and move it from the 'Grey area' to a definite 'Black and White'

This is written from an Australian perspective but I suspect applies worldwide, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it

As an aside, the Mayan calendar ends on December 21st of 2012, some feel it'll be the end of the world. If that's the case, I reckon HD will be the way to capture it 'cuse it'll be specko, so I'm hoping that exponential curve I was talking about gets a move on..... Personally, I reckon the calendar writer dropped dead on the 22/12/? didn't turn up for work, and the younger generation had moved to beads or something else more trendy.......

Al

Graham Hickling · February 28th, 2010, 11:32 PM

Just a quick post to say I am with Perone on this one. While there are many ways to reduce HD to SD poorly (and using many of the major NLEs and encoders would be among those ways) it is certainly possible to do it well and end up with less noise and other artifacts than are present in native SD.

Michael Wisniewski · March 1st, 2010, 12:15 AM

I remember "way back when" the discussion was about VHS vs. S-VHS camcorders, and the next new thing was laserdisc. The more things change ...

So far I think everyone has been "right", but everyone is just looking at different parts of the elephant. In the end though, we're all trying to do the same thing. I think this quote sums it up nicely.

Quote:

What I am looking for technology to do, is to reduce the amount of time from the idea to the execution - Steven Soderbergh

Alan Melville · March 1st, 2010, 02:56 AM

Michael,

I can remember the VHS, lugging the camera AND the deck unit around, I don't think I could do that today......it was my first video camera, although, for the life of me I don't remember the make, the first tape shot on it was of ants, I still have that video tucked away....and I remember laser disk.... we've come a hell of a long way....Seems like light years ago.....

Al

Dale Guthormsen · March 9th, 2010, 02:27 PM

slightly off thread but definitely related:

If you want to see blu ray at its best (HD) see the movie, North by Northwest. Its an old hitchcock movie and when see how it has been improved to HD, one has to step up to HD viewing after that!!! It is just amazing. I will never see SD the same after that experience.

Dale

Mestizo Devon · March 9th, 2010, 11:10 PM

Wow,
So, if one wants to bring HDV to SD and not use FCP or compressor, what is the best way?

Dale Guthormsen · March 14th, 2010, 05:13 PM

Devon,

go here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-hap...d-quality.html

I just finished a 2hour 20 minute hd video to Sd. I prefer to stay in Hd! Hence I still have my xl2 and gl2!!

Dale Guthormsen

Tony Davies-Patrick · March 15th, 2010, 11:57 AM

My bank balance still screams in pain when I view my invoices for large-scale Blue-Ray production compared to DVD... and a new set of PDfs arrived today which made me flinch! :).

There is still a huge difference in outlay and total costs so this needs to be taken into account if anybody is thinking about going the HD route and selling Blue-Ray as the end product, compared to the same movie in DVD.

Blue Ray discs can be sold at higher retail prices than DVD and this will help balance some of the higher costs lost through production, but the simple fact is that the number of Blue-Ray discs sold for the same title will be much lower than DVD. Things are changing, but at a very slow pace, far slower than we all envisioned a few years ago.

Dale Guthormsen · March 15th, 2010, 04:13 PM

Tony,

In some ways I am surprised at the slow take off of HD/bluray.

In wildlife shooting I think the difference is dramatic!! and If that is ones passion then going HD is inevitable.

shooting a movie of sorts is another story. When HD came on the scene I personally felt that getting the Sd to look by making it softer, grainier, DOF, color corrected was really in contradiction to the introduced hd format which was so much morre crystal.

shooting events: sporting, weddings etc. I thought HD would move much faster but it really has not.

While we see the differences as pretty dramatic I am now of the opinion most people do not.

Blu ray players are selling, but the fact that they upgrade the dvd's and make them look substantially better than our old dvd player that is actually slowing down blu ray sales. I only buy blu rays if I know the HD will significantly improve the experience. And, A lot of films are alright, but not worth spending the extra cash on.

It is interesting stuff.

I have a grouse video in HD and SD I show the hd first on the 50 inch plasma and then show the SD afterwards. Most of my friends that have seen this have bought a blu ray player.

Dale guthormsen

Oh yea, the expense of going hd is in fact significant!! It isn't just the camera, eh?

February 26th, 2010, 06:14 PM	#32
Owen Dawe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Lake Tarawera, Rotorua, New Zealand Posts: 244	Hi Guys, Well this has all turned out most interesting. It's only natural we've all looked at the topic from our own perspective. The issue of cost is relevant as to what country we're in and what we're trying to do. I failed to explain at the outset that I played a part in a group who launched a tv channel via satelite here in NZ. It was a huge team effort. I played a small part in studio production from camera to set construction, which included a live thirty minute nightly news. Then to a lesser degree field work and also outside live broadcast when needed over the past ten years. I recall in the early days I along with a group of volunteers made twentysix half hour shows on three Canon Xl 1 cameras, and Adobe Premier 5.6. Which seems a bit of a laugh now. We then made fifteen cafe type music shows on four xl 1 cameras. So now as soon as we get on our feet we're faced with HD. Other channels are converting, so eventually so must we. As to extra cost. Studio sets need to be made to a higher standard as does makeup and lighting. There is the cost of a studio three camera conversion, plus ancillary equipment from control, to the editing suite. As Randall Leong pointed out costs are higher 'down under'. Maybe that's why my remark at the outset Perrone why I said HD didn't look that 'crash hot' for what it involves. Householders and us are probably using cheaper gear. I wonder if HD has really caught on that big here. Compared to say conversion to colour which was widely embraced. Sure some channels have gone HD and sales of consumer HD tv's is up. Because of the cost factor coupled with the economic downturn maybe we are not as quick on the uptake as you guys in the U.S. Tony Davies-Patrick, loved your carp and under water material. And Perrone your footage looked great, loved the Perpetual Motion promo. Thanks Tony and Chris for confirming that with the EF adaptor the full Canon lens range is available for HD use. I'd always thought so, but even alot of the sales people here say you can't. But then many seem to plug Sony now. Maybe Sony give them a bigger markup margin than Canon. Who knows? I've always been a loyal Canon fan going back as far as super8 film. I must admit the Sony I use from work produces a sharper image especially under low light. I'm a bit reluctant to jump ship, but then I guess Canon has never given me a big hug and said 'Thankyou" either. __________________ Owen

February 28th, 2010, 04:36 AM	#36
Alan Melville Major Player Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: No Fixed Address :) Western Australia Posts: 275	Interesting read.... Hi Everyone, I've just read the whole thread and found it to be quite interesting and emotionally charged in places.... Some background info.... I started shooting with a XL1 quite some time ago, I still own it, don't shoot with it any more but can't bear to part with it. I now shoot with two XL2's, each rig has it's own full compliment of lens's including a prime and telephoto EF lens so I'm able to shoot 2 camera shots with the same lens setup. I also have a Gates housing and at present have a couple of lights. All my tapes are archived. I've yet to edit any sizable quantities even though I have an editing deck for viewing. This will be done when I'm too old to do the activities I do now. I'm 49. I sea kayak, explore remote areas by bicycle, hike and travel extensively by 4WD. For the past year or so I've been watching, with interest, the growth, acceptance and perceived / real advantages of HD. The burning question, "Do I jump on board?" Having been a bit of a 'Gear Head' most of my life, I can remember at 10 years of age, studying torches prior to a purchase!!!, one of the things I've learnt is that any new technology that hits the market, if robust, will only travel in one direction, forward. I feel HD is robust, but still in it's infancy, I'm not being condescending, I just see this as a fact. I have no doubt you all have project experience of some description, be it Engineering, Mechanical, Film or simply chopping the firewood for the next week! All of these things have a common point, they start with all the work and planning stretched out in front of them, some seem truly humongous, however, systematicly they come together, and when completion approaches, it is often a collapsing entity, it's an exponential curve, I feel we're now at the start of the 'HD Project'. I believe, given another 5 years HD will hit that 'Exponential curve' and will move to heights none of us can imagine, it'll be truly exponential, feeding on it's own developments at an increasing rate. I feel Blu Ray will benefit in the same manner and will move to truly mass market proportions thus driving the features of the components up and the price down. The two need to be 'in sync' for the total package to be complete. At present I feel we're in the 'Grey Area', some of the public want, some don't, and most, at present, don't care. However, as with anything that is an improvement, those that don't care, will, and then the move will be on, because the corporations will see the financial sense of making the investments and we, the enthusiasts and professionals, will benefit. The truth, sadly, is that we're tied into the profit margins of the corporations... :( Like all cutting edge technology, when it's first released, it's only in the very high end equipment, some of this equipment's customers are the likes of the worlds Military and Space Agencies, however, as advancements are made, even on the cutting edge, the "Lower edge" are moved into the public arena. There will be some that dispute this but in the late '80's a certain cigarette packet name on a beach in Western Australia could be read from a satellite!! As an average individual who only uses his cameras for his own purpose, i.e. not for an income, I have to be mindful of the cost of upgrading my whole system. Whilst I will bite the bullet one day in the future I feel the time isn't quite right at present but I'm eternally grateful to those of you who embrace and purchase the new concepts, as it's you who get it out there to the viewing public and move it from the 'Grey area' to a definite 'Black and White' This is written from an Australian perspective but I suspect applies worldwide, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it As an aside, the Mayan calendar ends on December 21st of 2012, some feel it'll be the end of the world. If that's the case, I reckon HD will be the way to capture it 'cuse it'll be specko, so I'm hoping that exponential curve I was talking about gets a move on..... Personally, I reckon the calendar writer dropped dead on the 22/12/? didn't turn up for work, and the younger generation had moved to beads or something else more trendy....... Al

March 9th, 2010, 02:27 PM	#40
Dale Guthormsen Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 3,048	slightly off thread but definitely related: If you want to see blu ray at its best (HD) see the movie, North by Northwest. Its an old hitchcock movie and when see how it has been improved to HD, one has to step up to HD viewing after that!!! It is just amazing. I will never see SD the same after that experience. Dale __________________ DATS ALL FOLKS Dale W. Guthormsen

March 14th, 2010, 05:13 PM	#42
Dale Guthormsen Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 3,048	Devon, go here: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-hap...d-quality.html I just finished a 2hour 20 minute hd video to Sd. I prefer to stay in Hd! Hence I still have my xl2 and gl2!! Dale Guthormsen __________________ DATS ALL FOLKS Dale W. Guthormsen

March 15th, 2010, 11:57 AM	#43
Tony Davies-Patrick Trustee Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Worldwide Posts: 1,589	My bank balance still screams in pain when I view my invoices for large-scale Blue-Ray production compared to DVD... and a new set of PDfs arrived today which made me flinch! :). There is still a huge difference in outlay and total costs so this needs to be taken into account if anybody is thinking about going the HD route and selling Blue-Ray as the end product, compared to the same movie in DVD. Blue Ray discs can be sold at higher retail prices than DVD and this will help balance some of the higher costs lost through production, but the simple fact is that the number of Blue-Ray discs sold for the same title will be much lower than DVD. Things are changing, but at a very slow pace, far slower than we all envisioned a few years ago. __________________ www.WILDCARP.com www.NIKON.me.uk

February 28th, 2010, 11:32 PM	#37
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Just a quick post to say I am with Perone on this one. While there are many ways to reduce HD to SD poorly (and using many of the major NLEs and encoders would be among those ways) it is certainly possible to do it well and end up with less noise and other artifacts than are present in native SD.

March 1st, 2010, 02:56 AM	#39
Alan Melville Major Player Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: No Fixed Address :) Western Australia Posts: 275	Michael, I can remember the VHS, lugging the camera AND the deck unit around, I don't think I could do that today......it was my first video camera, although, for the life of me I don't remember the make, the first tape shot on it was of ants, I still have that video tucked away....and I remember laser disk.... we've come a hell of a long way....Seems like light years ago..... Al

March 9th, 2010, 11:10 PM	#41
Mestizo Devon Major Player Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: United States Posts: 290	Wow, So, if one wants to bring HDV to SD and not use FCP or compressor, what is the best way?

March 15th, 2010, 04:13 PM	#44
Dale Guthormsen Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 3,048	Tony, In some ways I am surprised at the slow take off of HD/bluray. In wildlife shooting I think the difference is dramatic!! and If that is ones passion then going HD is inevitable. shooting a movie of sorts is another story. When HD came on the scene I personally felt that getting the Sd to look by making it softer, grainier, DOF, color corrected was really in contradiction to the introduced hd format which was so much morre crystal. shooting events: sporting, weddings etc. I thought HD would move much faster but it really has not. While we see the differences as pretty dramatic I am now of the opinion most people do not. Blu ray players are selling, but the fact that they upgrade the dvd's and make them look substantially better than our old dvd player that is actually slowing down blu ray sales. I only buy blu rays if I know the HD will significantly improve the experience. And, A lot of films are alright, but not worth spending the extra cash on. It is interesting stuff. I have a grouse video in HD and SD I show the hd first on the 50 inch plasma and then show the SD afterwards. Most of my friends that have seen this have bought a blu ray player. Dale guthormsen Oh yea, the expense of going hd is in fact significant!! It isn't just the camera, eh? __________________ DATS ALL FOLKS Dale W. Guthormsen