XL2 Settings Contest

Jay Gladwell · June 13th, 2005, 04:35 PM

One thing that needs to be taken into consideration when comparing cameras is price. The AJ-SDX900 lists for nearly $27,000 as opposed to the XL2 for $5,000. I think it's close to comparing apples to oranges.

Jay

Patrick King · June 13th, 2005, 04:52 PM

Jay & Marty,

Man, your glass is half empty. I don't think any XL2 owner assumes they can get the same imagery as the $27,000 Panny or a $$$ Grass Valley or a CineAlta, or...

The point is, let's share some presets in this community that may help someone setup their XL2 to get the best imagery the XL2 is capable of getting. Matt Cherry started me thinking about this with his excellent XL2 setup sheet. I'll gladly share the few setups I've played with and will even elaborate with 'wine critic' style descriptions if anyone in this forum would find it useful (...the palette is somewhat light, but leaves a pleasing after-image that lingers...).

If you don't want to do the Panny ones, share any setup you think might help somebody in this forum. Tell us about your 'Blade Runner' setup, or your '5 o'clock news interview' setup, or your 'Granny talks about the old days' setup. Any and all would be welcome I'm sure. I was just trying to give folks a tangible set of targets to shoot at. So far the AMALIE has escaped me, but its been fun trying to nail it.

I just want to share...can't we all just share? And if you're wondering, 'share' looks like Hue -3, Chroma +6, Area 0, Y-Level +3...

Marty Hudzik · June 14th, 2005, 08:10 AM

The original post sounded like you guys wanted to capture the looks on the Pana page. In fact there was a link to it. So that is why I was saying I doubt those looks can all be done in camera. As far as different looks that are XL2 exclusive.....that I can see being done. Maybe we can even get close to the Pana style images too!

But most of my comparison is based on tweaking a DVX100 and an XL2 together. And that is not a $27K camera. It is actually less than the XL2 but some of the gamma curves are in a class with the SDX900. Pana borrowed them from the big brother. The XL2 produces much cleaner higher res images than the DVX. I just wish some of the color tools were as responsive as the DVX. That's all.

Patrick King · June 14th, 2005, 08:59 AM

Y'all, Marty is onboard now! All systems GO!

Seriously now, I've got a question about the XL2 concerning the Custom Presets feature.

Why is Skin Detail NOT one of the settings saved in the Custom Preset feature? Custom Presets saves 15 settings that affect the 'look' of the imagery. My understanding of the Skin Detail feature is that it affects the 'look' of the imagery when human flesh is part of the image. So why wasn't it a saveable setting also?

Patrick King · June 14th, 2005, 08:26 PM

OK, I'll post my AMELIE setting as the first scene file for folks to sharpshoot. I'm completely open to criticism (constructive preferred) and would appreciate any input which would better this 'look' in an XL2 setup.

AMELIE

Hue (0)
Chroma (0)
Area (0)
Y-Level (0)
Skin Detail (OFF)

Gamma (Cine)
Knee (High)
Black (Press)

Color Matrix (Cine)
Color Gain (+6)
Color Phase (-2)
Red Gain (0)
Green Gain (+2)
Blue Gain (0)

Vertical Detail (Low)
Sharpness (-3)
Coring (+6)

Setup Level (+2)
Master Pedestal (0)
Noise Reduction (Off)

I'm hopeful this setup conveys the warm highlights and slightly green shadows of the film. I found the look even more effective when I white balanced with a +1/2 warm card. The +1 card seemed to overcook the color saturation. Enjoy!

Greg Boston · June 15th, 2005, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick King

Y'all, Marty is onboard now! All systems GO!

Seriously now, I've got a question about the XL2 concerning the Custom Presets feature.

Why is Skin Detail NOT one of the settings saved in the Custom Preset feature? Custom Presets saves 15 settings that affect the 'look' of the imagery. My understanding of the Skin Detail feature is that it affects the 'look' of the imagery when human flesh is part of the image. So why wasn't it a saveable setting also?

I am guessing Patrick that it's not saved because it is so, so situation specific. Just a small change in lighting or other camera settings would likely neccesitate a re-tweak of the skin detail function.

That's just my assumption about what the design engineers were thinking.

=gb=

Patrick King · June 15th, 2005, 11:58 AM

Marty,

I did notice the minimal slider effect you mentioned about 11 posts above in this thread. Specifically, the Coring setting seemed like it had no effect on the image at all until I set the max limit, and then only a subtle effect on the blacks.

I also wished the Color Gain setting had even more latitude than the +6 setting.

Greg, You may be correct that it is very situation dependent, but their making it hard to shoot a soap opera with this cam. ;) Isn't exactly repeatable capability the point of presets? If you knew you were shooting exactly the same host on exactly the same set everyday, that option would seem more attractive. I'm not, so it doesn't bother me much, I was just curious why that feature was not included in the Custom Preset capability.

Patrick King · July 5th, 2005, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick King

If you don't want to do the Panny ones, share any setup you think might help somebody in this forum. Tell us about your 'Blade Runner' setup, or your '5 o'clock news interview' setup, or your 'Granny talks about the old days' setup. Any and all would be welcome I'm sure. ...can't we all just share?

I seem to recall Ash and Richard mention that they were willing to share a setup...any setup! Please gents, you're obviously experienced shooters and some of us neophytes could learn from you. How about your stab at the 'Holy Grail' of setups: Filmic Look. Or a less ambitious setup: News @ 10. Really, anything would be instructional.

Barry Green's Technicolor Dream Setup
(I just reformatted from another post in the XL2 forum)

Hue (0)
Chroma (0)
Area (0)
Y-Level (0)
Skin Detail (OFF)

Gamma (Cine)
Knee (Middle)
Black (Press)

Color Matrix (Cine)
Color Gain (+4)
Color Phase (0)
Red Gain (+2)
Green Gain (+3)
Blue Gain (-2)

Vertical Detail (Norm)
Sharpness (0)
Coring (0)

Setup Level (0)
Master Pedestal (0)
Noise Reduction (Off)

Ash Greyson · July 5th, 2005, 08:45 PM

Here is one I use sometime for high shutter music or sports stuff... crushed blacks so NO detail in shadows... Knee set to high to help with contrast...
I will post some other presets when I get a chance to write them up...

ash =o)

Skin Detail: OFF

Frame Rate: 30P

Gain: -3dB

WB: warm

Gamma: Cine
Knee: High
Black: Press

Color Matrix: Cine
Color Gain: +3
Color Phase: +2

R Gain: +2
G Gain: 0
B Gain: +3

V Detail: low
Sharpness: +3
Coring: 0

Setup Level: -6
Master Ped: -6
NR: off

Simon Wyndham · July 6th, 2005, 02:05 AM

I'm glad you guys are finally sharing settings.

I was trying to get the Amelie setting working on my camera as it has always been a favourite of mine in Magic Bullet. I also like the Ice Cool looks on the Panny site too. I don't own an XL2, but it would be nice to see this thread grow with different looks.

Regarding how to actually set up looks I get conflicting information. Some say that you need to use a MacBeth chart with a waveform and vectorscope. Yet another very experienced engineer told me that he uses a MacBeth chart but without any form of scope as he says they interfere with the artistry. Some of those Panny looks were set up using a ChromaDuMonde chart (can you say $700!)

One of the better advices I saw was to set up a table with fruit and flowers, and preferably a person (like the Panny pictures), and then adjust the picture to your liking. Then evenly light a ChromaDuMonde or equivilent colour chart and take a note of the waveform and vectorscope formation.

With a program such as DV Rack, or even Vegas if you digitise the colour chart, you should be able to take screen grabs of the scopes. This way if someone else has the colour charts they can adjust their cameras to be exactly the same as yours even if they have a completely different camera.

Jon Laing · July 6th, 2005, 08:12 PM

Hue: 0
Chroma: 0
Area: 0
Y level: 0
Skin Detail: 0

Gamma: Cine
Knee: Low
Black: Stretch

Color Matrix: Cine
Color Gain: -1
Color Phase: -1

Red Gain: -6
Green Gain: 0
Blue Gain: -6

VDetail: Low
Sharpness: -6
Coring: 0

Setup Level: -3
Master Pedestal: 0
Noise Reduction: High

Thats my favorite preset on my camera. I use it for almost everything.

Patrick King · July 6th, 2005, 08:26 PM

Simon, I'd have to agree that using a Macbeth chart and waveform monitor would be the way to provide exact reproduction, but that's a little beyond what I'm willing to do to reproduce a look. But as a Vegas owner you've presented me an interesting option for using the Vegas waveform tools...hmmmm.

Jon, Thanks for sharing your "almost everything" setup. I'll give it a spin.

Ash Greyson · July 6th, 2005, 10:21 PM

Are you sure those are right? I will have to try it out but it looks like you will have super poppy greens and muted other colors. Also, when you set the NR to high it can really make fast moving images look bad... having the sharpness that far down really negates the need for NR anyway...

ash =o)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Laing

Hue: 0
Chroma: 0
Area: 0
Y level: 0
Skin Detail: 0

Gamma: Cine
Knee: Low
Black: Stretch

Color Matrix: Cine
Color Gain: -1
Color Phase: -1

Red Gain: -6
Green Gain: 0
Blue Gain: -6

VDetail: Low
Sharpness: -6
Coring: 0

Setup Level: -3
Master Pedestal: 0
Noise Reduction: High

Thats my favorite preset on my camera. I use it for almost everything.

Andy Joyce · July 7th, 2005, 04:48 PM

I don't have any cool settings yet, but I have a WIP modification of Matt Cherry's template to be printed and laminated as "business card" style cheat sheets. They will store well in any bag.

Let me know what you think. I'm still tweaking the layout a bit, so the categories will make more sense.

http://www.geocities.com/amjoyce2004/main.html
See the link under the camera pic.

Thanks,
Andy

Patrick King · July 7th, 2005, 07:34 PM

Andy,

I really like the organization on your card. Based on Matt Cherry's card I developed a spreadsheet I've been using to keep track of setups and shoots. I'm willing to share it but don't have a method to post it. I'll email to those that ask for it on the condition you return email the spreadsheet after you improve it (and I know you will).

From what I see on yours, I know I need to add a Hardware section to accompany the software section.

All DVinfo XL2'ers,

Drop me a note at pking36330 at gmail dot com if you want the excel spreadsheet.

As always, constructive criticism is welcomed, heckling will be returned in kind, and derogatory attacks will be worked into a script so that I can laugh at you all the way to the bank.

Remain flexible yet sarcastic.

June 13th, 2005, 04:52 PM	#17
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	Jay & Marty, Man, your glass is half empty. I don't think any XL2 owner assumes they can get the same imagery as the $27,000 Panny or a $$$ Grass Valley or a CineAlta, or... The point is, let's share some presets in this community that may help someone setup their XL2 to get the best imagery the XL2 is capable of getting. Matt Cherry started me thinking about this with his excellent XL2 setup sheet. I'll gladly share the few setups I've played with and will even elaborate with 'wine critic' style descriptions if anyone in this forum would find it useful (...the palette is somewhat light, but leaves a pleasing after-image that lingers...). If you don't want to do the Panny ones, share any setup you think might help somebody in this forum. Tell us about your 'Blade Runner' setup, or your '5 o'clock news interview' setup, or your 'Granny talks about the old days' setup. Any and all would be welcome I'm sure. I was just trying to give folks a tangible set of targets to shoot at. So far the AMALIE has escaped me, but its been fun trying to nail it. I just want to share...can't we all just share? And if you're wondering, 'share' looks like Hue -3, Chroma +6, Area 0, Y-Level +3... __________________ Fear No Weevil! Last edited by Patrick King; June 13th, 2005 at 06:04 PM.

June 14th, 2005, 08:59 AM	#19
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	Y'all, Marty is onboard now! All systems GO! Seriously now, I've got a question about the XL2 concerning the Custom Presets feature. Why is Skin Detail NOT one of the settings saved in the Custom Preset feature? Custom Presets saves 15 settings that affect the 'look' of the imagery. My understanding of the Skin Detail feature is that it affects the 'look' of the imagery when human flesh is part of the image. So why wasn't it a saveable setting also? __________________ Fear No Weevil!

June 14th, 2005, 08:26 PM	#20
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	OK, I'll post my AMELIE setting as the first scene file for folks to sharpshoot. I'm completely open to criticism (constructive preferred) and would appreciate any input which would better this 'look' in an XL2 setup. AMELIE Hue (0) Chroma (0) Area (0) Y-Level (0) Skin Detail (OFF) Gamma (Cine) Knee (High) Black (Press) Color Matrix (Cine) Color Gain (+6) Color Phase (-2) Red Gain (0) Green Gain (+2) Blue Gain (0) Vertical Detail (Low) Sharpness (-3) Coring (+6) Setup Level (+2) Master Pedestal (0) Noise Reduction (Off) I'm hopeful this setup conveys the warm highlights and slightly green shadows of the film. I found the look even more effective when I white balanced with a +1/2 warm card. The +1 card seemed to overcook the color saturation. Enjoy! __________________ Fear No Weevil!

June 15th, 2005, 11:58 AM	#22
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	Marty, I did notice the minimal slider effect you mentioned about 11 posts above in this thread. Specifically, the Coring setting seemed like it had no effect on the image at all until I set the max limit, and then only a subtle effect on the blacks. I also wished the Color Gain setting had even more latitude than the +6 setting. Greg, You may be correct that it is very situation dependent, but their making it hard to shoot a soap opera with this cam. ;) Isn't exactly repeatable capability the point of presets? If you knew you were shooting exactly the same host on exactly the same set everyday, that option would seem more attractive. I'm not, so it doesn't bother me much, I was just curious why that feature was not included in the Custom Preset capability. __________________ Fear No Weevil!

July 6th, 2005, 08:12 PM	#26
Jon Laing Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wall, NJ Posts: 31	Hue: 0 Chroma: 0 Area: 0 Y level: 0 Skin Detail: 0 Gamma: Cine Knee: Low Black: Stretch Color Matrix: Cine Color Gain: -1 Color Phase: -1 Red Gain: -6 Green Gain: 0 Blue Gain: -6 VDetail: Low Sharpness: -6 Coring: 0 Setup Level: -3 Master Pedestal: 0 Noise Reduction: High Thats my favorite preset on my camera. I use it for almost everything. __________________ --Devereaux ]:-( ---> http://geocities.com/anarchist_lb

June 13th, 2005, 04:35 PM	#16
Jay Gladwell Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,244	One thing that needs to be taken into consideration when comparing cameras is price. The AJ-SDX900 lists for nearly $27,000 as opposed to the XL2 for $5,000. I think it's close to comparing apples to oranges. Jay

June 14th, 2005, 08:10 AM	#18
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	The original post sounded like you guys wanted to capture the looks on the Pana page. In fact there was a link to it. So that is why I was saying I doubt those looks can all be done in camera. As far as different looks that are XL2 exclusive.....that I can see being done. Maybe we can even get close to the Pana style images too! But most of my comparison is based on tweaking a DVX100 and an XL2 together. And that is not a $27K camera. It is actually less than the XL2 but some of the gamma curves are in a class with the SDX900. Pana borrowed them from the big brother. The XL2 produces much cleaner higher res images than the DVX. I just wish some of the color tools were as responsive as the DVX. That's all.

July 5th, 2005, 08:45 PM	#24
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Here is one I use sometime for high shutter music or sports stuff... crushed blacks so NO detail in shadows... Knee set to high to help with contrast... I will post some other presets when I get a chance to write them up... ash =o) Skin Detail: OFF Frame Rate: 30P Gain: -3dB WB: warm Gamma: Cine Knee: High Black: Press Color Matrix: Cine Color Gain: +3 Color Phase: +2 R Gain: +2 G Gain: 0 B Gain: +3 V Detail: low Sharpness: +3 Coring: 0 Setup Level: -6 Master Ped: -6 NR: off

July 6th, 2005, 02:05 AM	#25
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	I'm glad you guys are finally sharing settings. I was trying to get the Amelie setting working on my camera as it has always been a favourite of mine in Magic Bullet. I also like the Ice Cool looks on the Panny site too. I don't own an XL2, but it would be nice to see this thread grow with different looks. Regarding how to actually set up looks I get conflicting information. Some say that you need to use a MacBeth chart with a waveform and vectorscope. Yet another very experienced engineer told me that he uses a MacBeth chart but without any form of scope as he says they interfere with the artistry. Some of those Panny looks were set up using a ChromaDuMonde chart (can you say $700!) One of the better advices I saw was to set up a table with fruit and flowers, and preferably a person (like the Panny pictures), and then adjust the picture to your liking. Then evenly light a ChromaDuMonde or equivilent colour chart and take a note of the waveform and vectorscope formation. With a program such as DV Rack, or even Vegas if you digitise the colour chart, you should be able to take screen grabs of the scopes. This way if someone else has the colour charts they can adjust their cameras to be exactly the same as yours even if they have a completely different camera.

July 6th, 2005, 08:26 PM	#27
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	Simon, I'd have to agree that using a Macbeth chart and waveform monitor would be the way to provide exact reproduction, but that's a little beyond what I'm willing to do to reproduce a look. But as a Vegas owner you've presented me an interesting option for using the Vegas waveform tools...hmmmm. Jon, Thanks for sharing your "almost everything" setup. I'll give it a spin. __________________ Fear No Weevil!

July 7th, 2005, 04:48 PM	#29
Andy Joyce Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Silicon Valley Posts: 61	I don't have any cool settings yet, but I have a WIP modification of Matt Cherry's template to be printed and laminated as "business card" style cheat sheets. They will store well in any bag. Let me know what you think. I'm still tweaking the layout a bit, so the categories will make more sense. http://www.geocities.com/amjoyce2004/main.html See the link under the camera pic. Thanks, Andy

July 7th, 2005, 07:34 PM	#30
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	Andy, I really like the organization on your card. Based on Matt Cherry's card I developed a spreadsheet I've been using to keep track of setups and shoots. I'm willing to share it but don't have a method to post it. I'll email to those that ask for it on the condition you return email the spreadsheet after you improve it (and I know you will). From what I see on yours, I know I need to add a Hardware section to accompany the software section. All DVinfo XL2'ers, Drop me a note at pking36330 at gmail dot com if you want the excel spreadsheet. As always, constructive criticism is welcomed, heckling will be returned in kind, and derogatory attacks will be worked into a script so that I can laugh at you all the way to the bank. Remain flexible yet sarcastic. __________________ Fear No Weevil!