Tripod system for long lenses at DVinfo.net

Ofer Levy · May 17th, 2005, 07:09 PM

I am getting the XL-2 and going to concentrate on birds as I am a professional bird photographer (stills).
I am going to use lenses as long as the 300mm and 400mm with x2 and x1.4 converters on the XL-2 - any advice as to a good tripod system for this kind of work keeping in mind I need top quality material. (My budget is limited to around 1500$...)-; )
Cheers,
Ofer Levy - Sydney

David Lach · May 17th, 2005, 10:46 PM

In that price range, I'd recommend the Vinten Vision 3 from personal experience. There's room to grow as it will support up to 22lbs. It allows for silky smooth motion and incredible support. Mine has a floor spreader but for your needs I figure a mid-level spreader would be better suited (although the mid-level spreaders from Vinten are ridiculously overpriced).

I paid $900 on eBay for a complete Vision 3 system with head, camera plate, spreader and 2-stage legs, so if you're patient, you could probably find a deal eventually, but if you need it right now, the retail price is closer to $1800 with the 2-stage aluminum legs, $1700 for 1-stage, so if you don't have a penny more than $1500, you might want to buy the head only for around $950 and get a decent pair of used legs with a 75mm bowl.

And although I don't have hands-on experience, I've seen the Miller DS-20 recommended quite a bit by some folks. I guess the Sachtler DV-6 is an other good contestant for the money.

All those systems have 75mm bowls, but again, you could just buy the head and get a set of used legs with a 75mm bowl or even a 100mm bowl with an adapter, which gives even more room to grow in the future. I just checked and there's a 2-stage tripod with 75mm bowl and floor spreader, advertised for loads of up to 26lbs, selling for $230 on eBay right now (although I cannot comment on its built quality).

Patrick King · May 18th, 2005, 05:07 AM

As the lens size increases, at some point, you switch to supporting the lens and not the camera. Long Canon

I guess you could concentrate on individual feathers with this thing.

Jay Gladwell · May 18th, 2005, 05:31 AM

The thing I've learned is it's not simply a matter of how much weight the head and legs can support, but how stable they are. With the XL1s (16x auto lens) I had a light-weight Sachtler that "supported" it just fine. However, when I zoomed all the way in on something, there was no way to keep the image steady. The only way to avoid any shake at all was to not touch the handle or camera.

When I did the upgrade to the XL2 (with the 20x lens!) I knew I was going to have even more trouble. There were only two options available to me. The first was to live with the shakes, and that, to me, wasn't really an option. The second was to swallow hard and invest in a tripod and head that not only supported the camera, but also offered the stablility I needed for those long shots. I wound up paying as much for the tripod and head (another Sachtler) as I did the camera. Now, when I'm zoomed all the way in on something, the image is steady!

What is a tripod system? It's the foundation for the camera! A weak foundation will yield weak images. With those longer lenses Ofer is talking about using, anything less simply isn't going to work. It may with still images, but not with motion images!

Jay

Mike Sutherland · May 18th, 2005, 10:56 AM

I agree with the firsy reply, the Vinten Vision 3 is perfect. I use it with no problems at all, very smooth, good counterbalance and perfect for use with long lenses. I think it would be a false economy buying something cheaper as you would probebly not be 100% happy and upgrading at a later date would cost more in the long term.

David Lach · May 18th, 2005, 12:01 PM

Hmmm, just to be clear here Ofer, are you talking 400mm in 35mm equivalent or are you talking about 1/3rd converted lenghts (which would make quite a difference in the choice of support).

The 20x lens is 108mm which converts to about 850mm. Now if you're talking about prime photo lenses with an adapter - and I think you were in fact talking 35mm photo values - you might be ok with any of the tripods mentioned as far as load is concerned, but maybe not lens support.

Also, you might already know, but if not, be aware that using a 35mm lens on the XL2 will magnify and proportionally reduce the FOV by 7.8x, which would turn any prime 400mm into a 3120mm effective FOV equivalent. You probably already knew as this is any wild life videographer's dream come true, but just in case you didn't...

Ron Armstrong · May 18th, 2005, 08:28 PM

Hi Ofer; With 35mm lenses beyond 200mm, or any lens with a mounting foot, you should consider a 100mm bowl and a sturdy tripod. In your price range, I would consider one of the more robust Bogen tripods ( 3192) with a Vinten head. Some of the 75mm heads can be ordered with 100mm bowls. I can't emphaize enough the value of a good head. You will soon see the difference in the smoothness of your pans and tilts. Spend the money on a good head. Vinten and Sachtler both make excellent products.

If you happen to use a Gitzo 400 series or larger tripod in your 35mm work, you can fit it with a video head adapter to accept the fluid heads. Gitzo manufactures one, but I can't put my hands on the part number right now. They call it a levelling ball, and it is in their video catalogue,.

With those long lenses, and the excessive chance of vibration, instability and balance, you should also consider a RONSRAIL, and to find the subect in the limited FOV a RONSIGHT would be invaluable.

See my website for examples of various camera- lens combos and fluid heads.

Mark Sasahara · May 18th, 2005, 08:41 PM

He's shooting with his still photo 300, or 400, so he's going to be very close to, or exceed the Vision3 load limit, depending on the lens. I suggest moving up to a larger head with a 100mm ball and legs with a 100mm bowl. This will be steadier.

Actually the ground spreader is good. Have a leg pointing to the rear, under the camera body and put a sandbag on that spreader arm. This will prevent the tripod from tipping accidentally. Just be careful, the spreader is plastic and the spider in the middle can break if you aren't careful.

You will need to support both the lens and the camera. It's one thing to have your EOS, or DX hanging off the end of your long glass, but the EOS mount will get seriously torqued by the long XL2 body protruding.

Ronsrail is a good thing. I haven't used it but I think others will vouch for it.
http://www.zgc.com/zgc.nsf/902a2548f...ghlight=0,rail

ZGC in New Jersey, USA has them, but not sure where in Oz to go.

You may want to look for a good used Miller, Sachtler, or Vinten tripod and head with a 100mm bowl. Some of the newer Manfrotto legs are good, but not the Manfrotto heads. There are a number of heads that will hold up to 15Kg and more. Check the manufacturer's web sites. Do your homework.

Normally, on a cine camera and some video cameras, a set of rods protrude in front of the camera that are for mounting accessories. There are long lens supports for supporting long and heavy lenses. Chrosziel and Cinetech make them as do others. You'll need a bracket and the rods. light weight 15mm rods should be good.

David Lach · May 18th, 2005, 10:53 PM

I really don't know if he could find such a device + quality tripod for around $1500. The Ronsrail alone is $800.

Well there's always eBay. There's a good but banged-up heavy duty head there once in a while. And maybe a rail type support can be machined too? I don't know, I'm not speaking from experience, but it looks like the kind of thing I'd just love to build myself.

Mark Sasahara · May 19th, 2005, 09:18 AM

DIY is a matter of time, money and skill. It's always nice if you know someone who owns a full machine shop.

Unfortunately, $1500 will probably not get a good tripod and support, but the used market in local shops and good ole ebay are great places to start.

Chris Hurd · May 19th, 2005, 09:25 AM

If he's limited to $1500 that may be in AU dollars, which unfortunately constrains the options a bit more.

Mark Sasahara · May 19th, 2005, 09:31 AM

Yes, he's probably talking Aussie dollars. Not sure what the rate is these days.

Chris Hurd · May 19th, 2005, 10:18 AM

As of today (19 May 2005), the AU dollar is worth about 76 cents US, which gives him a budget of about $1140 US to work with.

Mark Sasahara · May 19th, 2005, 10:46 AM

Ooo! I'm coming to Oz! Oh wait. I'll go to Canada instead. Plus I can go to the "Canadian Ballet". Definitely better than Koalas and roos.

Lauri Kettunen · May 20th, 2005, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Sasahara

You will need to support both the lens and the camera.

Mark, you are not the only one saying this, and would like to add an comment here: I just came from a hide after filming birds for several hours. I had the Canon Ef 600mm/f4.0 attached to the XL2 body with the EF adapter, and the whole system was supported on the fluid head (Manfrotto 510-10) from the lense. That is, the X2 body had no support. It was hanging free behind the lense. This is what I have been doing for years and never met any problems. It would be really bad engineering, if the connector could not take the weight of the XL2 body.

Ofer, the EF teleconventors 1.4x and 2x will blur the your footage. Canon manuals for the XL1 recommend not to use the conventors. Once you try, you will immediately understand why.

May 17th, 2005, 07:09 PM	#1
Ofer Levy Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney-Australia Posts: 443	Tripod system for long lenses I am getting the XL-2 and going to concentrate on birds as I am a professional bird photographer (stills). I am going to use lenses as long as the 300mm and 400mm with x2 and x1.4 converters on the XL-2 - any advice as to a good tripod system for this kind of work keeping in mind I need top quality material. (My budget is limited to around 1500$...)-; ) Cheers, Ofer Levy - Sydney

May 18th, 2005, 05:07 AM	#3
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	As the lens size increases, at some point, you switch to supporting the lens and not the camera. Long Canon I guess you could concentrate on individual feathers with this thing. __________________ Fear No Weevil!

May 18th, 2005, 10:56 AM	#5
Mike Sutherland New Boot Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 10	Vinten Vision 3 I agree with the firsy reply, the Vinten Vision 3 is perfect. I use it with no problems at all, very smooth, good counterbalance and perfect for use with long lenses. I think it would be a false economy buying something cheaper as you would probebly not be 100% happy and upgrading at a later date would cost more in the long term.

May 18th, 2005, 12:01 PM	#6
David Lach Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Posts: 570	Hmmm, just to be clear here Ofer, are you talking 400mm in 35mm equivalent or are you talking about 1/3rd converted lenghts (which would make quite a difference in the choice of support). The 20x lens is 108mm which converts to about 850mm. Now if you're talking about prime photo lenses with an adapter - and I think you were in fact talking 35mm photo values - you might be ok with any of the tripods mentioned as far as load is concerned, but maybe not lens support. Also, you might already know, but if not, be aware that using a 35mm lens on the XL2 will magnify and proportionally reduce the FOV by 7.8x, which would turn any prime 400mm into a 3120mm effective FOV equivalent. You probably already knew as this is any wild life videographer's dream come true, but just in case you didn't... Last edited by David Lach; May 18th, 2005 at 11:25 PM.

May 18th, 2005, 08:41 PM	#8
Mark Sasahara Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 649	Support lens and camera He's shooting with his still photo 300, or 400, so he's going to be very close to, or exceed the Vision3 load limit, depending on the lens. I suggest moving up to a larger head with a 100mm ball and legs with a 100mm bowl. This will be steadier. Actually the ground spreader is good. Have a leg pointing to the rear, under the camera body and put a sandbag on that spreader arm. This will prevent the tripod from tipping accidentally. Just be careful, the spreader is plastic and the spider in the middle can break if you aren't careful. You will need to support both the lens and the camera. It's one thing to have your EOS, or DX hanging off the end of your long glass, but the EOS mount will get seriously torqued by the long XL2 body protruding. Ronsrail is a good thing. I haven't used it but I think others will vouch for it. http://www.zgc.com/zgc.nsf/902a2548f...ghlight=0,rail ZGC in New Jersey, USA has them, but not sure where in Oz to go. You may want to look for a good used Miller, Sachtler, or Vinten tripod and head with a 100mm bowl. Some of the newer Manfrotto legs are good, but not the Manfrotto heads. There are a number of heads that will hold up to 15Kg and more. Check the manufacturer's web sites. Do your homework. Normally, on a cine camera and some video cameras, a set of rods protrude in front of the camera that are for mounting accessories. There are long lens supports for supporting long and heavy lenses. Chrosziel and Cinetech make them as do others. You'll need a bracket and the rods. light weight 15mm rods should be good. __________________ Mark Sasahara Director of Photography

May 17th, 2005, 10:46 PM	#2
David Lach Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Posts: 570	In that price range, I'd recommend the Vinten Vision 3 from personal experience. There's room to grow as it will support up to 22lbs. It allows for silky smooth motion and incredible support. Mine has a floor spreader but for your needs I figure a mid-level spreader would be better suited (although the mid-level spreaders from Vinten are ridiculously overpriced). I paid $900 on eBay for a complete Vision 3 system with head, camera plate, spreader and 2-stage legs, so if you're patient, you could probably find a deal eventually, but if you need it right now, the retail price is closer to $1800 with the 2-stage aluminum legs, $1700 for 1-stage, so if you don't have a penny more than $1500, you might want to buy the head only for around $950 and get a decent pair of used legs with a 75mm bowl. And although I don't have hands-on experience, I've seen the Miller DS-20 recommended quite a bit by some folks. I guess the Sachtler DV-6 is an other good contestant for the money. All those systems have 75mm bowls, but again, you could just buy the head and get a set of used legs with a 75mm bowl or even a 100mm bowl with an adapter, which gives even more room to grow in the future. I just checked and there's a 2-stage tripod with 75mm bowl and floor spreader, advertised for loads of up to 26lbs, selling for $230 on eBay right now (although I cannot comment on its built quality).

May 18th, 2005, 05:31 AM	#4
Jay Gladwell Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,244	The thing I've learned is it's not simply a matter of how much weight the head and legs can support, but how stable they are. With the XL1s (16x auto lens) I had a light-weight Sachtler that "supported" it just fine. However, when I zoomed all the way in on something, there was no way to keep the image steady. The only way to avoid any shake at all was to not touch the handle or camera. When I did the upgrade to the XL2 (with the 20x lens!) I knew I was going to have even more trouble. There were only two options available to me. The first was to live with the shakes, and that, to me, wasn't really an option. The second was to swallow hard and invest in a tripod and head that not only supported the camera, but also offered the stablility I needed for those long shots. I wound up paying as much for the tripod and head (another Sachtler) as I did the camera. Now, when I'm zoomed all the way in on something, the image is steady! What is a tripod system? It's the foundation for the camera! A weak foundation will yield weak images. With those longer lenses Ofer is talking about using, anything less simply isn't going to work. It may with still images, but not with motion images! Jay

May 18th, 2005, 08:28 PM	#7
Ron Armstrong Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kent, Washington, USA Posts: 113	Hi Ofer; With 35mm lenses beyond 200mm, or any lens with a mounting foot, you should consider a 100mm bowl and a sturdy tripod. In your price range, I would consider one of the more robust Bogen tripods ( 3192) with a Vinten head. Some of the 75mm heads can be ordered with 100mm bowls. I can't emphaize enough the value of a good head. You will soon see the difference in the smoothness of your pans and tilts. Spend the money on a good head. Vinten and Sachtler both make excellent products. If you happen to use a Gitzo 400 series or larger tripod in your 35mm work, you can fit it with a video head adapter to accept the fluid heads. Gitzo manufactures one, but I can't put my hands on the part number right now. They call it a levelling ball, and it is in their video catalogue,. With those long lenses, and the excessive chance of vibration, instability and balance, you should also consider a RONSRAIL, and to find the subect in the limited FOV a RONSIGHT would be invaluable. See my website for examples of various camera- lens combos and fluid heads.

May 18th, 2005, 10:53 PM	#9
David Lach Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Posts: 570	I really don't know if he could find such a device + quality tripod for around $1500. The Ronsrail alone is $800. Well there's always eBay. There's a good but banged-up heavy duty head there once in a while. And maybe a rail type support can be machined too? I don't know, I'm not speaking from experience, but it looks like the kind of thing I'd just love to build myself.

May 19th, 2005, 09:18 AM	#10
Mark Sasahara Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 649	DIY is a matter of time, money and skill. It's always nice if you know someone who owns a full machine shop. Unfortunately, $1500 will probably not get a good tripod and support, but the used market in local shops and good ole ebay are great places to start. __________________ Mark Sasahara Director of Photography

May 19th, 2005, 09:25 AM	#11
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	If he's limited to $1500 that may be in AU dollars, which unfortunately constrains the options a bit more. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 19th, 2005, 09:31 AM	#12
Mark Sasahara Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 649	Yes, he's probably talking Aussie dollars. Not sure what the rate is these days. __________________ Mark Sasahara Director of Photography

May 19th, 2005, 10:18 AM	#13
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	As of today (19 May 2005), the AU dollar is worth about 76 cents US, which gives him a budget of about $1140 US to work with. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 19th, 2005, 10:46 AM	#14
Mark Sasahara Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 649	Ooo! I'm coming to Oz! Oh wait. I'll go to Canada instead. Plus I can go to the "Canadian Ballet". Definitely better than Koalas and roos. __________________ Mark Sasahara Director of Photography