Sports and shutter speed

Richard Hunter · May 9th, 2005, 08:47 PM

Hi Michael. If you have time to set up the focus then a narrow depth of field is no problem. It is when you have a moving subject (I mean someone running around rather than something emotional!) that focus can go off quickly. When you do your tests, make sure you include shots of people coming and going so that the distance to camera is changing. This will tell you if you are able to track the focus sufficently.

Richard

Michael Salzlechner · May 10th, 2005, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Hunter

Hi Michael. If you have time to set up the focus then a narrow depth of field is no problem. It is when you have a moving subject (I mean someone running around rather than something emotional!) that focus can go off quickly. When you do your tests, make sure you include shots of people coming and going so that the distance to camera is changing. This will tell you if you are able to track the focus sufficently.

Richard

Richard

yes i did my tests with a skater doing her program. The XL2's focus is easily able to keep up with the skater.

The only problem is that the focus is center weighted and if you dont keep the subject in the center it is possible to loose focus on the background but it isnt too bad.

The DOF really isnt that narrow anyway. With still photography i am used to a DOF of about 1m - 0.5m or sometimes even less. With the XL2 i should end up with a lot more DOF than that.

Again i will do some more testing regarding focus but from my first few tests it seems to be able to keep up with focus just fine. It is a wonderful little (well not quite that little) machine.

Greg Boston · May 10th, 2005, 11:49 AM

Hello Michael, I am coming late to this thread because I was on a shoot this past weekend. I would only add to Chris's answer in one respect and this is ONLY if you want to be able to grab 'clean' frame grabs for still photos (like DVD cover art or storyboarding). In this situation, I use 30p so that there won't be any interlacing issues. Shutter speed will still determine amound of motion blur in this circumstance, but progressive scan will not have be de-interlaced later in your NLE or photo editor. It's a method I have used even on the old XL-1 frame mode and it works.

Quote:
What i am not sure about is what shutter speeds to use. I am a still photographer for years and wth still photography shutterspeeds have to be high enough to freeze action. In video obviously it is not as nessecary as you can not inspect a single frame closely...

Yes Michael, you can inspect a single frame closely! It won't have the resolution of your still camera but it can be 'clearly frozen' with a high enough shutter speed and progressive scanning. Since the Xl-2 can achieve 1/15000 shutter, your chances of freezing things in motion are pretty good.

Quote:
Why woud you use the camera on Tv with exposure lock ? I would simply use the camera on manual...

I have shot bicycle racing in Tv mode at 30p (for frame grabs) and 1/250th (for freezing motion) and then let the camera run the iris so I don't have to adjust it as I swing the camera around and get a different angle from the sun. Unlike still photography where you expose for a 'moment in time', with video you must expose for 'over a period of time under changing conditions'. That's where the semi-auto Tv and Av modes really help you. If you think this makes you unprofessional, think again. Anything you can use to achieve a better end result is fair game in my opinion.

Michael Salzlechner · May 10th, 2005, 05:23 PM

Greg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

Hello Michael, I am coming late to this thread because I was on a shoot this past weekend. I would only add to Chris's answer in one respect and this is ONLY if you want to be able to grab 'clean' frame grabs for still photos (like DVD cover art or storyboarding). In this situation, I use 30p so that there won't be any interlacing issues. Shutter speed will still determine amound of motion blur in this circumstance, but progressive scan will not have be de-interlaced later in your NLE or photo editor. It's a method I have used even on the old XL-1 frame mode and it works.

Thanks for the tip. We also have two still shooters at the same time so luckily we do have much better quality stills from there but i keep this in mind for cases where i dont have that option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

Yes Michael, you can inspect a single frame closely! It won't have the resolution of your still camera but it can be 'clearly frozen' with a high enough shutter speed and progressive scanning. Since the Xl-2 can achieve 1/15000 shutter, your chances of freezing things in motion are pretty good.

Sure you can. What i meant was that mostly people watch the video and they dont expect the single frames to be perfect. With stills it is different if a still is blurred too much it simply doesnt work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

I have shot bicycle racing in Tv mode at 30p (for frame grabs) and 1/250th (for freezing motion) and then let the camera run the iris so I don't have to adjust it as I swing the camera around and get a different angle from the sun. Unlike still photography where you expose for a 'moment in time', with video you must expose for 'over a period of time under changing conditions'. That's where the semi-auto Tv and Av modes really help you. If you think this makes you unprofessional, think again. Anything you can use to achieve a better end result is fair game in my opinion.

Of course. I didnt say that auto exposure modes shouldnt be used. I use them very often with still cameras as well. Ice skating is one of the occasions where auto exposure isnt nessecary and manual exposure is generally better because we know the lighting doesnt change. The lighting is even across the rink so auto exposure would be the wrong thing in this case. If i shoot under changing lighting conditions then obviously i trust my cameras auto exposure whether still or video and the XL2's auto exposure works quite well.

Thanks for the tips

Jon Bickford · May 13th, 2005, 12:00 AM

Shutter speeds affect movement pretty significantly, if you want the sports to look completely natural 1/60th in 30p/60i or 1/48th of a second if shooting 24p.

if you want to catch sharp images of ice clumps in mid air like the dirt in Saving Private Ryan use a faster speed, around 1/250th-500th should be sufficient. However, there are side effects to fast shutter speeds, pans look terrible as the image sort of stutters across the screen, this is much more noticeable in progressive scan modes.

a slower shutter like 1/15th or 1/8th will give a blurred look that has a pretty good dramatic effect, a good example would be "Three Kings" when Clooney shoots the guy. This will give a complete smear to ant camera movements

Recently i shot a live concert where much of the bands frantic music was shot at around 1/250th but much of the mosh pit and crowd shots were done at 1/8th-1/15th the jam packed moshpit at 1/8th of a second almost look like some kind of churning primordial ooze with faces appearing and disappearing as people momentarily paused, very cool, so experiment.

but basically if you want the sports to look like tv or like you are there, 1/60th-100th of a second for 60i, 1/60th for 30p and 1/48th for 24p

-Jon

Michael Salzlechner · May 13th, 2005, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Bickford

Shutter speeds affect movement pretty significantly, if you want the sports to look completely natural 1/60th in 30p/60i or 1/48th of a second if shooting 24p.

Jon

thank you so much. This was what i was looking for. This will give me a good starting point for my tests. I noticed the odd pan effects with higher shutter speeds already but wasnt shure yet where they came from.

Again

thanks for your help

May 13th, 2005, 12:00 AM	#20
Jon Bickford Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV., Los Angeles, CA, Posts: 220	Shutter speeds affect movement pretty significantly, if you want the sports to look completely natural 1/60th in 30p/60i or 1/48th of a second if shooting 24p. if you want to catch sharp images of ice clumps in mid air like the dirt in Saving Private Ryan use a faster speed, around 1/250th-500th should be sufficient. However, there are side effects to fast shutter speeds, pans look terrible as the image sort of stutters across the screen, this is much more noticeable in progressive scan modes. a slower shutter like 1/15th or 1/8th will give a blurred look that has a pretty good dramatic effect, a good example would be "Three Kings" when Clooney shoots the guy. This will give a complete smear to ant camera movements Recently i shot a live concert where much of the bands frantic music was shot at around 1/250th but much of the mosh pit and crowd shots were done at 1/8th-1/15th the jam packed moshpit at 1/8th of a second almost look like some kind of churning primordial ooze with faces appearing and disappearing as people momentarily paused, very cool, so experiment. but basically if you want the sports to look like tv or like you are there, 1/60th-100th of a second for 60i, 1/60th for 30p and 1/48th for 24p -Jon __________________ Jon Bickford, Trepany Films San Pedro, CA Trephine001@aol.com

May 9th, 2005, 08:47 PM	#16
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	Hi Michael. If you have time to set up the focus then a narrow depth of field is no problem. It is when you have a moving subject (I mean someone running around rather than something emotional!) that focus can go off quickly. When you do your tests, make sure you include shots of people coming and going so that the distance to camera is changing. This will tell you if you are able to track the focus sufficently. Richard

May 10th, 2005, 11:49 AM	#18
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	Hello Michael, I am coming late to this thread because I was on a shoot this past weekend. I would only add to Chris's answer in one respect and this is ONLY if you want to be able to grab 'clean' frame grabs for still photos (like DVD cover art or storyboarding). In this situation, I use 30p so that there won't be any interlacing issues. Shutter speed will still determine amound of motion blur in this circumstance, but progressive scan will not have be de-interlaced later in your NLE or photo editor. It's a method I have used even on the old XL-1 frame mode and it works. Quote: What i am not sure about is what shutter speeds to use. I am a still photographer for years and wth still photography shutterspeeds have to be high enough to freeze action. In video obviously it is not as nessecary as you can not inspect a single frame closely... Yes Michael, you can inspect a single frame closely! It won't have the resolution of your still camera but it can be 'clearly frozen' with a high enough shutter speed and progressive scanning. Since the Xl-2 can achieve 1/15000 shutter, your chances of freezing things in motion are pretty good. Quote: Why woud you use the camera on Tv with exposure lock ? I would simply use the camera on manual... I have shot bicycle racing in Tv mode at 30p (for frame grabs) and 1/250th (for freezing motion) and then let the camera run the iris so I don't have to adjust it as I swing the camera around and get a different angle from the sun. Unlike still photography where you expose for a 'moment in time', with video you must expose for 'over a period of time under changing conditions'. That's where the semi-auto Tv and Av modes really help you. If you think this makes you unprofessional, think again. Anything you can use to achieve a better end result is fair game in my opinion.