To those that complain about Canon and the XL2... at DVinfo.net

Zack Birlew · May 5th, 2005, 01:18 PM

I have to say that those who are complaining about the XL2 and Canon's lack of HD/HDV products are really ungrateful.

First off, Canon had their customers especially in mind when they were developing the XL2, maybe not on the level of Panasonic's listening ear but close second. If Canon would have made the XL2 HDV right off the bat, the first thing to be changed would be the lenses and the price. None of the old XL1/1s lenses and accessories would work on an HDV model and everyone would have to start from scratch. I remember everyone complaining about this before the XL2 even came out. We, the customers, made it crystal clear to Canon that we wanted all of our old accessories to work with the next iteration of the XL. What's the solution to that? Standard Definition.

Second, Canon didn't make another XL1/1s, they made a totally different beast that had almost everything asked for. Backwards compatibility with most of the XL1/1s accessories and lenses, much higher resolution, 24p, native 16:9, and more buttons than we can shake a stick at (or try to press for that matter, some of the buttons are small ;) ).

Thirdly, the camera has only been out for less than seven months now, there hasn't been too much to see on the internet as far as downloadable videos, and there is an SDK but it is still having some kinks worked out if I'm not mistaken. I for one believe that there hasn't been enough time for people to get used to shooting with the XL2 so we can see some terrific results, it's no DVX100/A, you need to tweak it a bit more than usual.

Fourthly, Canon shouldn't need to come out with an HD/HDV version of their XL camera anytime soon, unless they want to cannibalize their XL2 sales or aliennate the already established XL2 userbase, because the XL2 has a ton of resolution to make up for the lack of HD/HDV and can hold off until they do go HD.

Fifthly, Canon has a lot to meditate on. For starters, there's the question of whether HDV is going to work out or not in favor of some other HD format. There's also the matter of distribution. Think about it, if the new HD cameras can't get onto DVD's right now then what would be the best camera for right now? Two choices, the XL2 or the DVX100A. The matter over the cost of HD lenses is also a problem. Then there's the question of the HDDVD vs. BluRay conondrum, which one will win or will both work together? Depending on the answer, Canon will know their limitations and goals when they eventually go HD.

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post but I'm tired of all the Canon bashing and all camera bashing in general. Use what you like and use what you've got, people!

Joseph Tran · May 5th, 2005, 01:50 PM

Wonderfully put, Jack! It took me about eight months before deciding on an XL2, but it was certainly the right decision for me. I am currently doing event coverage and short films with the XL2, and this beast performs its job magnificently!

The ability to tweak settings with the footage gives us more control than I've seen in any other camera in its price range. Whether you want realistic colors (and I mean VERY realistic), or very vivid, vibrant colors (and I mean VERY vibrant), the XL2 definitely delivers it.

At this point, there's so many new formats and medias... who really knows where it's all going to go? Plus, I definitely agree that the camera is still new, and we're only beginning to see the tip of the iceberg with what this camera can truly do.

Who knows... I may switch over to HDV or ProHD in the near future, but I needed a dependable camera NOW. I've only been using this camera for a few months now, but from what I've already seen and done with it, I am certain that this SD machine will serve me well for the years to come. Like Jack said... stop bashing and use what you've got!

Kevin Wild · May 5th, 2005, 01:56 PM

Here, here! (Or is it Hear, Hear...not sure)

Anyways, HD is still not here yet. I just got back from about 3 stores looking at HD sets. They couldn't even get it right in the stores that are selling the sets. CompUSA & Circuit City had a slew of HD sets that were being fed with a horrible signal...it looked awful. Great...high definition crap. If the stores can't get it right, consumers are definitely a ways off before they do.

I still think it's a couple years before it's necesary to have HD cameras, UNLESS you're doing broadcast, blowing up to film or working with a client that requires it. With the new low-priced HD cameras out this year, it's great if you want to get one. But, the XL2 should not be considered a has-been...it is still a "now" camera and works great and has a great picture.

KW

Marco Wagner · May 5th, 2005, 02:09 PM

Yeah i have to agree with HD still being way too young to start throwing products out there. How many of YOU have an HDTV this minute anyway? I know I don't yet, what is the point? There is really not even enough "good" HD content out there to even warrant the purchase of the TV yet. Only 3 of the quantities of people I know even have a widescreen tv, let alone an HD. So why make a camera that creates content that only a small percentage of people will be able to view? (excluding those porting to film) The answer: Hype and Money.

Luis Caffesse · May 5th, 2005, 02:09 PM

With the new low-priced HD cameras out this year, it's great if you want to get one. But, the XL2 should not be considered a has-been...it is still a "now" camera and works great and has a great picture.

Kevin, I think you hit the nail on the head with that.
The XL2 is a 'now' camera.
The JVC is a July camera, and the HVX is a fourth quarter camera.

Those may be great, they may not be.
But what's more important is what can we shoot with today, right now, to get our projects done.

The XL2 is far from a has-been.
In the DV field, I think it's easily the best choice, no contest.

Mike Teutsch · May 5th, 2005, 02:29 PM

Personally I'm so very tired of all of the bashing and ill talk between and about everything and everyone! Camera models, camera manufactures, software programs, shooting formats, competing computer formats (PC vs Apple), and on and on. Buy what you like and go shot something with it. If it's good tell us how you did it and post it for all to see! I'm on this forum to learn.

Maybe I should clarify one point, I mean shoot it with a camera!

Curb you egos, reign in your testosterone, put you buyers remorse and your brand loyalty aside and have fun learning!

As someone once said, "Can't, can't we all just get along?" UHH!

Mike

Kevin Wild · May 5th, 2005, 02:49 PM

As someone once said, "Can't, can't we all just get along?" UHH!

Mike[/QUOTE]

Ha...if ole' Rodney King's video was shot in HD, 1080p, 24p and 16 x 9...he would've had a much better case against LAPD. :-)

KW

Luis Caffesse · May 5th, 2005, 02:49 PM

Curb you egos, reign in your testosterone, put you buyers remorse and your brand loyalty aside and have fun learning!

Well said Mike.

James Rhodes · May 5th, 2005, 02:56 PM

Here is all im saying,

Everyone has their cards out on the table, there is no reason canon should leave its customers in the dark. All I want to know is should I sell now. I unfortunatley rent my XL2 out and haven't had a rental since January. The Hype is all around HDV and most fimmaker don't care about technicallity like us here in these forums. We know why the XL2 is a superior camera, but I have to go with what makes me money.

If canon would at least have some news or at least something to keep our flame going, like something to do with the SDK, but yet NAB goes by with no word. I love my XL2 alot i waited 8 months for it, ordered it the day it was announced, and will be sad to see it go.

Another thing to consider is that as we moving into a " digital age " we find ourselves doing more green and blue screen work. As we all know DV is terrible to pull a key on, even with programs like Ultra and Primatte and Advatedge, still hard and time consuming. The panasonic is a dream for compositing.

I think we will see a small divide between event and creative videographers until canon lets us know what they plan on doing. If they announced now I would wait till it came out to buy something, but as it is now. I have to go with what makes sense.

Luis Caffesse · May 5th, 2005, 03:04 PM

Canon has said they will have announcements sometime in the second half of this year.

James Rhodes · May 5th, 2005, 03:38 PM

yes but that will most likely be a GL3 update. not an XL3 update, we wont see another XL for another year at least.

Luis Caffesse · May 5th, 2005, 03:42 PM

I think you're probably right, though they did say they would have 5 or 6 announcements before the end of the year. So they obviously have something going on other than the GL3. But, again, the important thing is what we can use today. Even an HDV XL3 won't make you any money today...

Greg Boston · May 5th, 2005, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

Personally I'm so very tired of all of the bashing and ill talk between and about everything and everyone! Camera models, camera manufactures, software programs, shooting formats, competing computer formats (PC vs Apple), and on and on. Buy what you like and go shot something with it. If it's good tell us how you did it and post it for all to see! I'm on this forum to learn.

Maybe I should clarify one point, I mean shoot it with a camera!

Curb you egos, reign in your testosterone, put you buyers remorse and your brand loyalty aside and have fun learning!

As someone once said, "Can't, can't we all just get along?" UHH!

Mike

Yes, we can all get along just fine here at DV-INFO. It's a posting requirement! All the moderators here work to keep the posters and their content tilted towards the friendly side. Having to use real names helps a lot in this respect.

-gb-

Bob Zimmerman · May 6th, 2005, 03:12 AM

a canon e-mail I got today said no HDV. Here is part of it,,

Unfortunately, the HDV technology is only Sony and JVC exclusive.
Canon's camcorders do not have any access to incorporate the copyrighted
HD technology. Canon headquarters has not announced any plans to create
a GL3 or their own high definition technology, however, since Sony and
JVC are competitors in the market of videography, I presume that Canon's
engineers are currently working on something.

I take that to be a good sign. Maybe Canon will skip the HDV and do HD.

Jay Gladwell · May 6th, 2005, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Zimmerman

I take that to be a good sign. Maybe Canon will skip the HDV and do HD.

Wow, imagine that. Be still my heart!

Jay

May 5th, 2005, 01:18 PM	#1
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	To those that complain about Canon and the XL2... I have to say that those who are complaining about the XL2 and Canon's lack of HD/HDV products are really ungrateful. First off, Canon had their customers especially in mind when they were developing the XL2, maybe not on the level of Panasonic's listening ear but close second. If Canon would have made the XL2 HDV right off the bat, the first thing to be changed would be the lenses and the price. None of the old XL1/1s lenses and accessories would work on an HDV model and everyone would have to start from scratch. I remember everyone complaining about this before the XL2 even came out. We, the customers, made it crystal clear to Canon that we wanted all of our old accessories to work with the next iteration of the XL. What's the solution to that? Standard Definition. Second, Canon didn't make another XL1/1s, they made a totally different beast that had almost everything asked for. Backwards compatibility with most of the XL1/1s accessories and lenses, much higher resolution, 24p, native 16:9, and more buttons than we can shake a stick at (or try to press for that matter, some of the buttons are small ;) ). Thirdly, the camera has only been out for less than seven months now, there hasn't been too much to see on the internet as far as downloadable videos, and there is an SDK but it is still having some kinks worked out if I'm not mistaken. I for one believe that there hasn't been enough time for people to get used to shooting with the XL2 so we can see some terrific results, it's no DVX100/A, you need to tweak it a bit more than usual. Fourthly, Canon shouldn't need to come out with an HD/HDV version of their XL camera anytime soon, unless they want to cannibalize their XL2 sales or aliennate the already established XL2 userbase, because the XL2 has a ton of resolution to make up for the lack of HD/HDV and can hold off until they do go HD. Fifthly, Canon has a lot to meditate on. For starters, there's the question of whether HDV is going to work out or not in favor of some other HD format. There's also the matter of distribution. Think about it, if the new HD cameras can't get onto DVD's right now then what would be the best camera for right now? Two choices, the XL2 or the DVX100A. The matter over the cost of HD lenses is also a problem. Then there's the question of the HDDVD vs. BluRay conondrum, which one will win or will both work together? Depending on the answer, Canon will know their limitations and goals when they eventually go HD. Sorry if this is the wrong place to post but I'm tired of all the Canon bashing and all camera bashing in general. Use what you like and use what you've got, people! __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

May 5th, 2005, 02:09 PM	#4
Marco Wagner Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Saint Cloud, Florida Posts: 1,043	Yeah i have to agree with HD still being way too young to start throwing products out there. How many of YOU have an HDTV this minute anyway? I know I don't yet, what is the point? There is really not even enough "good" HD content out there to even warrant the purchase of the TV yet. Only 3 of the quantities of people I know even have a widescreen tv, let alone an HD. So why make a camera that creates content that only a small percentage of people will be able to view? (excluding those porting to film) The answer: Hype and Money. __________________ www.facebook.com/projectspecto

May 5th, 2005, 02:09 PM	#5
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	With the new low-priced HD cameras out this year, it's great if you want to get one. But, the XL2 should not be considered a has-been...it is still a "now" camera and works great and has a great picture. Kevin, I think you hit the nail on the head with that. The XL2 is a 'now' camera. The JVC is a July camera, and the HVX is a fourth quarter camera. Those may be great, they may not be. But what's more important is what can we shoot with today, right now, to get our projects done. The XL2 is far from a has-been. In the DV field, I think it's easily the best choice, no contest. __________________ Luis Caffesse Pitch Productions Austin, Texas Last edited by Luis Caffesse; May 5th, 2005 at 02:48 PM.

May 5th, 2005, 02:29 PM	#6
Mike Teutsch Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 2,614	Personally I'm so very tired of all of the bashing and ill talk between and about everything and everyone! Camera models, camera manufactures, software programs, shooting formats, competing computer formats (PC vs Apple), and on and on. Buy what you like and go shot something with it. If it's good tell us how you did it and post it for all to see! I'm on this forum to learn. Maybe I should clarify one point, I mean shoot it with a camera! Curb you egos, reign in your testosterone, put you buyers remorse and your brand loyalty aside and have fun learning! As someone once said, "Can't, can't we all just get along?" UHH! Mike __________________ Chapter one, line one. The BH.

May 5th, 2005, 02:49 PM	#8
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	Curb you egos, reign in your testosterone, put you buyers remorse and your brand loyalty aside and have fun learning! Well said Mike. __________________ Luis Caffesse Pitch Productions Austin, Texas

May 5th, 2005, 01:50 PM	#2
Joseph Tran Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 177	Wonderfully put, Jack! It took me about eight months before deciding on an XL2, but it was certainly the right decision for me. I am currently doing event coverage and short films with the XL2, and this beast performs its job magnificently! The ability to tweak settings with the footage gives us more control than I've seen in any other camera in its price range. Whether you want realistic colors (and I mean VERY realistic), or very vivid, vibrant colors (and I mean VERY vibrant), the XL2 definitely delivers it. At this point, there's so many new formats and medias... who really knows where it's all going to go? Plus, I definitely agree that the camera is still new, and we're only beginning to see the tip of the iceberg with what this camera can truly do. Who knows... I may switch over to HDV or ProHD in the near future, but I needed a dependable camera NOW. I've only been using this camera for a few months now, but from what I've already seen and done with it, I am certain that this SD machine will serve me well for the years to come. Like Jack said... stop bashing and use what you've got!

May 5th, 2005, 01:56 PM	#3
Kevin Wild Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 540	Here, here! (Or is it Hear, Hear...not sure) Anyways, HD is still not here yet. I just got back from about 3 stores looking at HD sets. They couldn't even get it right in the stores that are selling the sets. CompUSA & Circuit City had a slew of HD sets that were being fed with a horrible signal...it looked awful. Great...high definition crap. If the stores can't get it right, consumers are definitely a ways off before they do. I still think it's a couple years before it's necesary to have HD cameras, UNLESS you're doing broadcast, blowing up to film or working with a client that requires it. With the new low-priced HD cameras out this year, it's great if you want to get one. But, the XL2 should not be considered a has-been...it is still a "now" camera and works great and has a great picture. KW

May 5th, 2005, 02:56 PM	#9
James Rhodes Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 49	Ok guys take it easy Here is all im saying, Everyone has their cards out on the table, there is no reason canon should leave its customers in the dark. All I want to know is should I sell now. I unfortunatley rent my XL2 out and haven't had a rental since January. The Hype is all around HDV and most fimmaker don't care about technicallity like us here in these forums. We know why the XL2 is a superior camera, but I have to go with what makes me money. If canon would at least have some news or at least something to keep our flame going, like something to do with the SDK, but yet NAB goes by with no word. I love my XL2 alot i waited 8 months for it, ordered it the day it was announced, and will be sad to see it go. Another thing to consider is that as we moving into a " digital age " we find ourselves doing more green and blue screen work. As we all know DV is terrible to pull a key on, even with programs like Ultra and Primatte and Advatedge, still hard and time consuming. The panasonic is a dream for compositing. I think we will see a small divide between event and creative videographers until canon lets us know what they plan on doing. If they announced now I would wait till it came out to buy something, but as it is now. I have to go with what makes sense. __________________ To Shoot or to be shot, that is the question!

May 5th, 2005, 03:04 PM	#10
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	Canon has said they will have announcements sometime in the second half of this year. __________________ Luis Caffesse Pitch Productions Austin, Texas

May 5th, 2005, 03:38 PM	#11
James Rhodes Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 49	yes but yes but that will most likely be a GL3 update. not an XL3 update, we wont see another XL for another year at least. __________________ To Shoot or to be shot, that is the question!

May 5th, 2005, 03:42 PM	#12
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	I think you're probably right, though they did say they would have 5 or 6 announcements before the end of the year. So they obviously have something going on other than the GL3. But, again, the important thing is what we can use today. Even an HDV XL3 won't make you any money today... __________________ Luis Caffesse Pitch Productions Austin, Texas

May 6th, 2005, 03:12 AM	#14
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	a canon e-mail I got today said no HDV. Here is part of it,, Unfortunately, the HDV technology is only Sony and JVC exclusive. Canon's camcorders do not have any access to incorporate the copyrighted HD technology. Canon headquarters has not announced any plans to create a GL3 or their own high definition technology, however, since Sony and JVC are competitors in the market of videography, I presume that Canon's engineers are currently working on something. I take that to be a good sign. Maybe Canon will skip the HDV and do HD.