In Search for the "Cinematic look" at DVinfo.net

Joan Daniel · February 9th, 2005, 11:34 AM

My dear colleagues,
In my search for the Cinematic look, right know I’m experimenting in a “trial and error” kind of mode, to add them to my presets.
To get the best personalized setting for my short films using the plenty of parameters that we enjoy in the XL2, I wonder, is there a reasonable difference in lighting setup, between shooting in 2:3(TV) or 2:3:3 (for transfer to film stock). Since basically we are doing video, do we need better contrast for 2:3:3?. If so, any one knows a good chart reference to take a look. And how much of the “Cinelook” we can left for Postproduction? Or none?

yours truly

Joan Daniel

Pete Bauer · February 9th, 2005, 01:40 PM

Howdy Joan,

If someone with more technical knowledge knows better, please speak up. But as far as I know, there should be no difference in exposure or color saturation, etc (ie, "the look") at any given shutter speed + aperture combination between the 2:3 (24p) and 2:3:3:2 (24pA) settings. The difference is just in the cadence that fields are repeated to write the 24 frames to a 60i signal on the tape.

Rob Lohman · February 10th, 2005, 04:47 AM

Shutter speed:
- changes the way motion looks (and how much light you need)

Iris / aperture:
- changes the depth of field (what is in focus + how much light you need)

Framerate:
- changes the way motion looks

Gain:
- amplifies CCD levels (changes noise levels + how much light you need)

The difference between 2:3 and 2:3:3:2 is the way 24p footage
is converted to 30p before it is layed down to tape. This is mainly
important for editing etc.

Then there are all kind of options to actually change the look of
the footage, including:

- white balance (changes the way colors look)

- setup level (changes how black, black is)

- color gain (how vivid are the colors, can also produce B&W) = saturation

- skin detail (soften imperfections)

- gamma curve / knee / black stretch & press (changes the gamma curve to more closely match films gamma curve)

- color matrix (change the look of colors)

- color phase / RGB gain (shift or boost colors)

- vertical detail (soften or sharpen the image vertically)

- sharpness (overal sharpness)

- coring (adjust detail noise levels)

- master pedestal (darken + increase constrast, or lighten + lower contrast)

- noise reduction

That's basically this. All of it is described in the manual. Carefully
read that and do tests yourself. That is the only way to see what
you like and what works for you or doesn't.

Personally I'm a fan of doing things in post, but then again I haven't
shot anything with this camera myself yet.
-

Joan Daniel · February 10th, 2005, 09:29 AM

And Yes, the camera's manual is where I'm taking my references from.

but nothing like this for the XL2? :

http://panasonic.com/business/provid...ene_select.asp

Anyway if the answer is not I'll try my best to give you and the whole community screen shots and settings.

cheers!!

Rob Lohman · February 11th, 2005, 03:58 AM

That is not possible with the XL2 at this time indeed.

Michael Escher · May 23rd, 2005, 11:52 AM

Rob, I was lead to belive that one could transfer presets from XL2 to XL2 with a firewire cable. It seems that you could set up looks like the linked panasonic page and you'd be good to go. I am frankly surprised no one, including Canon has set a page like this up for XL2 owners.

Patrick King · May 23rd, 2005, 12:10 PM

I'm another one that would use a reference for the XL2 similar to the Panasonic listing. It seems this should be the sort of thing available in the "XL2 Owners Club".

Another DVinfo member, Matt Cherry has provided a setup sheet for use in documenting presets for a shoot, but more for after the fact documentation than idea provoking possibilities like the Panny site.

Michael Escher · May 23rd, 2005, 04:14 PM

Well, I just got off the line with the Canon customer service rep from the US west coast and put in a request for a page on their website similar to the one listed in one of the emails above that panasonic has for their cameras.

The supervisor that I spoke to said that Canon would be more responsive if they recieved a number of requests for the info from different people, so if you all want this info, I suggest you call Canon at one of the divisions listed on the website below.

http://www.usa.canon.com/html/indust..._america.shtml

Perhaps if we put enough heat on them, they will come through with something we all can use.

February 9th, 2005, 11:34 AM	#1
Joan Daniel New Boot Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 14	In Search for the "Cinematic look" My dear colleagues, In my search for the Cinematic look, right know I’m experimenting in a “trial and error” kind of mode, to add them to my presets. To get the best personalized setting for my short films using the plenty of parameters that we enjoy in the XL2, I wonder, is there a reasonable difference in lighting setup, between shooting in 2:3(TV) or 2:3:3 (for transfer to film stock). Since basically we are doing video, do we need better contrast for 2:3:3?. If so, any one knows a good chart reference to take a look. And how much of the “Cinelook” we can left for Postproduction? Or none? yours truly Joan Daniel

February 9th, 2005, 01:40 PM	#2
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Howdy Joan, If someone with more technical knowledge knows better, please speak up. But as far as I know, there should be no difference in exposure or color saturation, etc (ie, "the look") at any given shutter speed + aperture combination between the 2:3 (24p) and 2:3:3:2 (24pA) settings. The difference is just in the cadence that fields are repeated to write the 24 frames to a 60i signal on the tape. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

February 10th, 2005, 04:47 AM	#3
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Shutter speed: - changes the way motion looks (and how much light you need) Iris / aperture: - changes the depth of field (what is in focus + how much light you need) Framerate: - changes the way motion looks Gain: - amplifies CCD levels (changes noise levels + how much light you need) The difference between 2:3 and 2:3:3:2 is the way 24p footage is converted to 30p before it is layed down to tape. This is mainly important for editing etc. Then there are all kind of options to actually change the look of the footage, including: - white balance (changes the way colors look) - setup level (changes how black, black is) - color gain (how vivid are the colors, can also produce B&W) = saturation - skin detail (soften imperfections) - gamma curve / knee / black stretch & press (changes the gamma curve to more closely match films gamma curve) - color matrix (change the look of colors) - color phase / RGB gain (shift or boost colors) - vertical detail (soften or sharpen the image vertically) - sharpness (overal sharpness) - coring (adjust detail noise levels) - master pedestal (darken + increase constrast, or lighten + lower contrast) - noise reduction That's basically this. All of it is described in the manual. Carefully read that and do tests yourself. That is the only way to see what you like and what works for you or doesn't. Personally I'm a fan of doing things in post, but then again I haven't shot anything with this camera myself yet. - __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

February 10th, 2005, 09:29 AM	#4
Joan Daniel New Boot Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 14	Thank you guys And Yes, the camera's manual is where I'm taking my references from. but nothing like this for the XL2? : http://panasonic.com/business/provid...ene_select.asp Anyway if the answer is not I'll try my best to give you and the whole community screen shots and settings. cheers!! __________________ Joan Daniel Lillo

February 11th, 2005, 03:58 AM	#5
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	That is not possible with the XL2 at this time indeed. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 23rd, 2005, 11:52 AM	#6
Michael Escher New Boot Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 15	Rob, I was lead to belive that one could transfer presets from XL2 to XL2 with a firewire cable. It seems that you could set up looks like the linked panasonic page and you'd be good to go. I am frankly surprised no one, including Canon has set a page like this up for XL2 owners.

May 23rd, 2005, 12:10 PM	#7
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	I'm another one that would use a reference for the XL2 similar to the Panasonic listing. It seems this should be the sort of thing available in the "XL2 Owners Club". Another DVinfo member, Matt Cherry has provided a setup sheet for use in documenting presets for a shoot, but more for after the fact documentation than idea provoking possibilities like the Panny site. __________________ Fear No Weevil!

May 23rd, 2005, 04:14 PM	#8
Michael Escher New Boot Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 15	Well, I just got off the line with the Canon customer service rep from the US west coast and put in a request for a page on their website similar to the one listed in one of the emails above that panasonic has for their cameras. The supervisor that I spoke to said that Canon would be more responsive if they recieved a number of requests for the info from different people, so if you all want this info, I suggest you call Canon at one of the divisions listed on the website below. http://www.usa.canon.com/html/indust..._america.shtml Perhaps if we put enough heat on them, they will come through with something we all can use.