Why won't my Sony or JVC Play my Canon XL1 and XL2 Tapes ?!?

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 13th, 2005, 09:58 AM

Anthony, if you had trouble playing back during the drive away test it might mean the tape you were using was out of tolerance. You should start off with a new tape, not recorded in your home.

Jack Smith · February 13th, 2005, 10:51 AM

I use a line conditioner on all my equipment because I get voltage fluctuations.Just out of curiousity , do you use one?Is it possible you get fluctuations that may coincide?Just a thought

Anthony Marotti · February 13th, 2005, 12:33 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : Anthony, if you had trouble playing back during the drive away test it might mean the tape you were using was out of tolerance. You should start off with a new tape, not recorded in your home. -->>>

Hello,

Yes, I think the tape may be one of the factors. I have tried this with several new tapes and get varying results (from excellent to the same as noted in my previous posts).

I will have to schedule some time to run some off-site tests using various tape stock.

Thanks for the feedback !!

Anthony Marotti · February 13th, 2005, 12:35 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Smith : I use a line conditioner on all my equipment because I get voltage fluctuations.Just out of curiousity , do you use one?Is it possible you get fluctuations that may coincide?Just a thought -->>>

Hello,

I have a special line into my studio that is isolated from the rest of the building and has its own ground, and that is conditioned as well.

Thanks for the thoughts !!

Dan Mumford · February 26th, 2005, 04:04 AM

HI guys,

I was doing a search here because I had basically the same problem. I just got my XL2 this week and shot some video to try it out. Here is my set-up/info. XL2 - 4:3, 60i, auto mode with some manual focus, Maxell tape. For editing I use a Sony GVD1000 for capture (for the same reason as others here, I was told by experienced cameramen NOT to use the camera as a deck. Our local access folks won't let us do it.) Anyway, I use the Sony for capture and putting the final edit back to tape for the local station. In the recent past I had a GL1 and never had a problem switching taped between the two so I figured it should be no problem with theXL2. WRONG! The video was split in horizontal slices and the audio was terrible. I used the XL2 to capture to disk using Scenalyzerlive. It still looked bad, like it was shot at 15fps or less. Adobe wouldn't import the file. MSPro did, but it looked bad.

OK. Here is my simple solution. I was in the menu, getting to know the camera and setting it up, and went into the time code menu. I don't know (can't remember) if you can change such things on the GL1, but if you can, I didn't. In the Frame Setting, (back to XL2 now) I had it set to drop. (Can't remember if I did it or if this was the default when I got the XL2) I just set it to NON-DROP, shot a couple of minutes of video, put the tape into the Sony, and it looks great! Captured to disk, imported into Premiere Pro, it works just fine.

I don't know if this is your problem, but check your settings and try it. I'd like to know if it worked for you.

I see the last post here is Feb. 13, so you may have worked out the problem by now. If not, I hope this helps.

Dan

Anthony Marotti · February 26th, 2005, 12:49 PM

Hi Dan,

I think that you are falling into the same trap that I did.

First of all; Drop Frame is the default for the XL2 and for my Sony TRV 8 (the cam in question) the mode is also Drop Frame. I tried researching what most camcorders are set to by default (or fixed for those that can not be changed), but did not get an answer, I assume that Drop Frame is standard.

I was on track with many solutions, but just when I thought that I had it nailed down, it changed :-(

From what I have read, in general, if you shoot with one timecode option, you should capture with the same option. Using that theory, if most less expensive cameras are setup as Drop Frame, then changing the XL2 to Non-Drop Frame, would not be a proper solution.

To further complicate the problem, I ran tests using both modes, without any change in results.

Our common denominator is that we both used Maxell tapes! I think that whereas the less expensive tape stock may not make a difference with most scenarios, XL users must pay attention to this situation when we choose tape stock in combination with our choice of decks!

I am going to buy a DSR-11 and hope that the higher quality mechanism will alleviate the problem, but I will use the highest quality tapes for shooting contract work as well!!

Let's keep the feedback coming, I think it is important!

Dan Mumford · February 27th, 2005, 02:54 PM

Hi Anthony,

This really ticks me off. I never had this problem with my GL1, nor the GL2 from the local access station. I have tried the drop and non-drop settings, Maxell, Sony, and Panasonic tapes, and nothing works. The only way I can get it into Adobe PremierePro 1.5 is to capture using Premiere Pro and the XL2. This combination (so far) poses no problem. I just wrote to Canon with a detailed description and told them it is unacceptable. I use my Sony GV-D1000 and ScenalyzerLive for capturing. I have done this for two years, and I will continue to do so even if it means returning the XL2 and getting something else.

When I pay as much for a product as I did for the XL2, (plus the Anton Bauer set-up and an extra two years warranty) dang it, I want it to work flawlessly. Don't you?

Dan

Dan Mumford · February 27th, 2005, 05:53 PM

Hey Anthony,

Me again! OK, here may be our solution.

If you don't already have one, get a head cleaner tape. Clean your XL2 and the capture deck. Do it twice or thrice each. Get a NEW (Right out of the box) tape and record 5-10 minutes on it. Put it in your capture deck and give it a try. Worked perfectly for me. (You still may get a couple of blips at the beginning)

Here's what I think happened. The new XL2 had contaminated heads. Either from a protective coating (Deliberate application) or gunk from the factory. This contaminated the tape, which in turn, contaminated your capture deck. Like spreading a virus, we just kept sending it back and forth each time we used the tape.

I just did it and and not a blip, drop, or anything in 10 minutes of tape. If this is the solution, I'd recommend NOT using any tape that has been in the XL2 as it will still be dirty.

Let me know how it goes.

Dan

Richard Alvarez · February 27th, 2005, 06:07 PM

XL2 Manual reccomends cleaning the heads before use. And also reccomends using DRY brand tape head cleaners.

Dan Mumford · February 27th, 2005, 06:48 PM

Someone else mentioned that but I didn't even find it until tonight. By then, however, the damage was done. I did, and should have stated so, use a dry head cleaning tape. Works just fine now but I am going to shoot some more tomorrow just to be sure.

Dan

Steve House · March 27th, 2005, 10:41 AM

Wouldn't a record direct to HD capture add-on for the XL2 be less expensive than a second camera for the capture and give higher quality results to boot?

Steve

Anthony Marotti · March 27th, 2005, 12:54 PM

Hello Steve,

I am not sure if this is what you are looking for, but...

This next job I'll be shooting 40 - 50 tapes, I could not afford a direct to HDD solution :-(

:-)

Chris Owen · June 25th, 2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Marotti

Hello Steve,

I am not sure if this is what you are looking for, but...

This next job I'll be shooting 40 - 50 tapes, I could not afford a direct to HDD solution :-(

:-)

It would seem that with as much tape as you use throughout your shoots, you could go with a hard disk solution that would justify itsself after just a few shoots (you mentioned earlier, I think, that you had an upcoming "80 tape" job).

While the upfront cost may be hard to deal with, the long term seems to justify it. Even a new laptop with DVRack software would only set you back $900 (pffff - I said "Only $900: ... who am I kidding?? That's a ton of $$ to me). Or, @ $700, a new Firestore FS-4 (40GB).

Anthony Marotti · June 25th, 2006, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Owen

It would seem that with as much tape as you use throughout your shoots, you could go with a hard disk solution that would justify itsself after just a few shoots (you mentioned earlier, I think, that you had an upcoming "80 tape" job).

While the upfront cost may be hard to deal with, the long term seems to justify it. Even a new laptop with DVRack software would only set you back $900 (pffff - I said "Only $900: ... who am I kidding?? That's a ton of $$ to me). Or, @ $700, a new Firestore FS-4 (40GB).

Hey Chris,

That post was a while ago and equipment has gotten better as well as cheaper. I will be getting a Canon XL H1 soon and now have a different acquisition challenge.

My biggest problem with more equipment isn't the cost as much as the additional crew requirements and space. I travel 1800 + miles to do most of my work and lugging that stuff around gets expensive, not to mention that there is just so much space for transport... and at the site.

But production is about making choices... and we succeed if we mostly make the right ones :-)

Anthony Marotti · June 25th, 2006, 09:22 AM

BTW I did get the Sony DS-11 and couldn't be happier.

My original problem was caused by the cheap cameras I was using as a feeder deck.

Cheers!

February 13th, 2005, 09:58 AM	#31
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Anthony, if you had trouble playing back during the drive away test it might mean the tape you were using was out of tolerance. You should start off with a new tape, not recorded in your home. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 13th, 2005, 12:33 PM	#33
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : Anthony, if you had trouble playing back during the drive away test it might mean the tape you were using was out of tolerance. You should start off with a new tape, not recorded in your home. -->>> Hello, Yes, I think the tape may be one of the factors. I have tried this with several new tapes and get varying results (from excellent to the same as noted in my previous posts). I will have to schedule some time to run some off-site tests using various tape stock. Thanks for the feedback !! __________________ AM

February 13th, 2005, 12:35 PM	#34
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Smith : I use a line conditioner on all my equipment because I get voltage fluctuations.Just out of curiousity , do you use one?Is it possible you get fluctuations that may coincide?Just a thought -->>> Hello, I have a special line into my studio that is isolated from the rest of the building and has its own ground, and that is conditioned as well. Thanks for the thoughts !! __________________ AM

February 26th, 2005, 04:04 AM	#35
Dan Mumford Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Daytona Beach, Florida Posts: 99	HI guys, I was doing a search here because I had basically the same problem. I just got my XL2 this week and shot some video to try it out. Here is my set-up/info. XL2 - 4:3, 60i, auto mode with some manual focus, Maxell tape. For editing I use a Sony GVD1000 for capture (for the same reason as others here, I was told by experienced cameramen NOT to use the camera as a deck. Our local access folks won't let us do it.) Anyway, I use the Sony for capture and putting the final edit back to tape for the local station. In the recent past I had a GL1 and never had a problem switching taped between the two so I figured it should be no problem with theXL2. WRONG! The video was split in horizontal slices and the audio was terrible. I used the XL2 to capture to disk using Scenalyzerlive. It still looked bad, like it was shot at 15fps or less. Adobe wouldn't import the file. MSPro did, but it looked bad. OK. Here is my simple solution. I was in the menu, getting to know the camera and setting it up, and went into the time code menu. I don't know (can't remember) if you can change such things on the GL1, but if you can, I didn't. In the Frame Setting, (back to XL2 now) I had it set to drop. (Can't remember if I did it or if this was the default when I got the XL2) I just set it to NON-DROP, shot a couple of minutes of video, put the tape into the Sony, and it looks great! Captured to disk, imported into Premiere Pro, it works just fine. I don't know if this is your problem, but check your settings and try it. I'd like to know if it worked for you. I see the last post here is Feb. 13, so you may have worked out the problem by now. If not, I hope this helps. Dan __________________ Wow! That thing must have cost an arm and a leg! - - - It did! I used to have three of each.

February 26th, 2005, 12:49 PM	#36
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	Hi Dan, I think that you are falling into the same trap that I did. First of all; Drop Frame is the default for the XL2 and for my Sony TRV 8 (the cam in question) the mode is also Drop Frame. I tried researching what most camcorders are set to by default (or fixed for those that can not be changed), but did not get an answer, I assume that Drop Frame is standard. I was on track with many solutions, but just when I thought that I had it nailed down, it changed :-( From what I have read, in general, if you shoot with one timecode option, you should capture with the same option. Using that theory, if most less expensive cameras are setup as Drop Frame, then changing the XL2 to Non-Drop Frame, would not be a proper solution. To further complicate the problem, I ran tests using both modes, without any change in results. Our common denominator is that we both used Maxell tapes! I think that whereas the less expensive tape stock may not make a difference with most scenarios, XL users must pay attention to this situation when we choose tape stock in combination with our choice of decks! I am going to buy a DSR-11 and hope that the higher quality mechanism will alleviate the problem, but I will use the highest quality tapes for shooting contract work as well!! Let's keep the feedback coming, I think it is important! __________________ AM

February 13th, 2005, 10:51 AM	#32
Jack Smith Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: ontario Posts: 445	I use a line conditioner on all my equipment because I get voltage fluctuations.Just out of curiousity , do you use one?Is it possible you get fluctuations that may coincide?Just a thought

February 27th, 2005, 02:54 PM	#37
Dan Mumford Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Daytona Beach, Florida Posts: 99	Hi Anthony, This really ticks me off. I never had this problem with my GL1, nor the GL2 from the local access station. I have tried the drop and non-drop settings, Maxell, Sony, and Panasonic tapes, and nothing works. The only way I can get it into Adobe PremierePro 1.5 is to capture using Premiere Pro and the XL2. This combination (so far) poses no problem. I just wrote to Canon with a detailed description and told them it is unacceptable. I use my Sony GV-D1000 and ScenalyzerLive for capturing. I have done this for two years, and I will continue to do so even if it means returning the XL2 and getting something else. When I pay as much for a product as I did for the XL2, (plus the Anton Bauer set-up and an extra two years warranty) dang it, I want it to work flawlessly. Don't you? Dan __________________ Wow! That thing must have cost an arm and a leg! - - - It did! I used to have three of each.

February 27th, 2005, 05:53 PM	#38
Dan Mumford Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Daytona Beach, Florida Posts: 99	Hey Anthony, Me again! OK, here may be our solution. If you don't already have one, get a head cleaner tape. Clean your XL2 and the capture deck. Do it twice or thrice each. Get a NEW (Right out of the box) tape and record 5-10 minutes on it. Put it in your capture deck and give it a try. Worked perfectly for me. (You still may get a couple of blips at the beginning) Here's what I think happened. The new XL2 had contaminated heads. Either from a protective coating (Deliberate application) or gunk from the factory. This contaminated the tape, which in turn, contaminated your capture deck. Like spreading a virus, we just kept sending it back and forth each time we used the tape. I just did it and and not a blip, drop, or anything in 10 minutes of tape. If this is the solution, I'd recommend NOT using any tape that has been in the XL2 as it will still be dirty. Let me know how it goes. Dan __________________ Wow! That thing must have cost an arm and a leg! - - - It did! I used to have three of each.

February 27th, 2005, 06:07 PM	#39
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	XL2 Manual reccomends cleaning the heads before use. And also reccomends using DRY brand tape head cleaners.

February 27th, 2005, 06:48 PM	#40
Dan Mumford Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Daytona Beach, Florida Posts: 99	Someone else mentioned that but I didn't even find it until tonight. By then, however, the damage was done. I did, and should have stated so, use a dry head cleaning tape. Works just fine now but I am going to shoot some more tomorrow just to be sure. Dan __________________ Wow! That thing must have cost an arm and a leg! - - - It did! I used to have three of each.

March 27th, 2005, 10:41 AM	#41
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	Wouldn't a record direct to HD capture add-on for the XL2 be less expensive than a second camera for the capture and give higher quality results to boot? Steve

March 27th, 2005, 12:54 PM	#42
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	Hello Steve, I am not sure if this is what you are looking for, but... This next job I'll be shooting 40 - 50 tapes, I could not afford a direct to HDD solution :-( :-) __________________ AM

June 25th, 2006, 09:22 AM	#45
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	BTW I did get the Sony DS-11 and couldn't be happier. My original problem was caused by the cheap cameras I was using as a feeder deck. Cheers! __________________ AM