Why won't my Sony or JVC Play my Canon XL1 and XL2 Tapes ?!?

Chris Hurd · February 9th, 2005, 07:53 AM

Mike Rehmus is of the opinion that brand media plays nicely with the same brand hardware. If you shoot mostly Panasonic tapes, get a Panasonic deck. Sony tapes, Sony deck. I agree with his advice. Sounds odd but it works.

By the way, I'm thinking of moving this discussion to our Long Black Line forum since it's more to do with tape than the XL2. So if it gets moved, that's the reason.

Anthony Marotti · February 9th, 2005, 08:41 AM

Hello Chris,

Thanks for the feedback !

I am not sure what the topic is about anymore, but my continued testing will unfold the truth.

One reason that you may want to keep this thread here, is that I am in contact with Canon Tech Support and they may have some relevant information for other XL2 owners, which I will post to this thread.

Thanks Again !!

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 9th, 2005, 08:56 AM

Anthony, try wrapping your cameras in aluminum foil --grounded if possible-- and repeat the tests. This should help block RFI. If it works, perhaps you can then sue the broadcaster for the expense of building a Faraday cage around your house or something like that.

Anthony Marotti · February 9th, 2005, 09:03 AM

Hello Ignacio,

I was considering building one around my equipment, but I'm looking for a farm and will be moving soon, so I will put off enriching any attorneys at this time....

Ooops, one of my partners is an attorney, I better be careful :-)

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 9th, 2005, 09:12 AM

It seems this topic is now about RFI affecting DV equipment.

Greg Boston · February 9th, 2005, 11:27 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Anthony Marotti : Hello Guys :-)

* It appears that at 4:00 AM my cameras all work correctly, but at 6:30 AM, I get problems where the audio just stops while the video plays without dropout (the canons actually playback fine at 6:30 AM).

* I have four 50,000 Watt transmission antennas about 150' from my location :-o

I am betting that mid-day when I run these tests, the audio noise will be present with video dropout. I hope this is the case as it will mean that my gear is not malfunctioning, but that the high concentration of radio energy may be interfering with my gears error correction capabilities.

-->>>

Anthony,

That is very possible. You see, in the US, AM stations must do 1 of 3 things at night to prevent interference to other stations in other markets. They must go off the air, reduce power, or go directional.

Yours is a case of a clear channel (50kw) AM station switching form directional to non-directional at 6:30AM which, if you are paying attention is the current time of local sunrise. That switchover will occur at different times during the year but will be at local sunrise and sunset. That's why there are 4 towers. They are switched into a phased array at night to produce a directional signal. If you really are no more than 150 feet from the towers cranking out 50kw, it's a wonder anything electronic works in your home. That's one heck of an rf energy field your sitting in! You should install all flourescent lighting in your home because they would likey illuminate themselves and save you money on electric bills.

If your theory is correct, you should have no problems with your gear after the sun goes down. Boy, is that last sentence a loaded statement or what? ;D

=gb=

Anthony Marotti · February 10th, 2005, 08:59 AM

Hello Gregg

Well I am back to square one :-(

I have been working with the guys at Canon and we came up with that possibility together and it not only made sense, but it appeared to time out correctly.

Unfortunately, last night/or I mean this morning at around 3:30 AM, my Sony wouldn't play the tapes again :-(

This is weird because the morning before they played without a hitch. And it isn't just the Sony because my Canons seemed to have some playback issues too ??it is now 10:50 AM and I shot some footage on my XL1, XL2 and Sony at about 7:30 AM and guess what......

Now everything seems to work fine ?????

It could be a combination of RF Interference, Tape Quality, and maybe that Voodoo curse my X-wife put on me.... But I will not rest until I find out what is going on !!!!

Thanks for the continued feedback !

PS very interesting explanation of the broadcast transmission :-)

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 10th, 2005, 09:05 AM

> You should install all flourescent lighting in your
> home because they would likey illuminate themselves
> and save you money on electric bills.

Cool!

Wouldn't want my body exposed to that 24x7 though. And some of us make a fuss about cell phones!

Anthony Marotti · February 10th, 2005, 09:47 AM

Bizzar.... Even the tapes that gave me the worst problems are now playing/and capturing without a glitch..........

I am going Nuts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ignacio Rodriguez · February 10th, 2005, 10:19 AM

Perhaps a lawyer from the radio station read this and they immediatley dropped the power output!

Serioulsy though, remember the transmission is directional and can be affected by atmospheric conditions. It is possible that your home is not in the intended path of the transmission and, under ideal conditions RFI might be below the tolerance for your cameras. Most likely if you drive away and check all the cameras somewhere else they will ALWAYS work well.

Of course if you recorded some tapes in your home then the signal on them might be permanently out of tolerance or contain drop-outs, but that's a whole other issue.

A. J. deLange · February 10th, 2005, 01:27 PM

If the array is only 150' away he's going to be in the near field and won't see much effect from the phasing. A primitive field strength tester can be made from a loop of wire and a neon bulb. If the bulb glows there's a good chance of trouble for unprotected electronics. Checking stuff out somewhere else is a good suggestion.

Greg Boston · February 11th, 2005, 09:44 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by A. J. deLange : If the array is only 150' away he's going to be in the near field and won't see much effect from the phasing. A primitive field strength tester can be made from a loop of wire and a neon bulb. If the bulb glows there's a good chance of trouble for unprotected electronics. Checking stuff out somewhere else is a good suggestion. -->>>

He had been reporting problems during daylight hours which is when the station would go back to an omnidirectional pattern. I used to have a 40 meter dipole stretched across the roof of my home and everytime I keyed my ham transmitter in CW mode, I was getting the 'incandecent' bulb in the hallway to glow faintly. Hehe..it scared the ***t out of my wife. Remember, this is AM broadcast we're talking and the whole tower is the antenna! No elevating the signal above the roofline with a ground plane on top of a tower like FM stations.

But, it sounds like the pattern hasn't held. I also like Ignacio's suggestion of moving the equipment elsewhere to see how it behaves.

Well Anthony, looks like you've got more investigating to do. But, I am convinced that you are getting hit with some type of interference.

good luck,

-gb-

Anthony Marotti · February 11th, 2005, 09:58 AM

Hey guys, Thanks again for the ongoing support, it is comforting, and much appreciated.

I am doing the "Drive Away" test today!

Thanks Again Guys !!!

Greg Boston · February 13th, 2005, 07:36 AM

Quote: It could be a combination of RF Interference, Tape Quality, and maybe that Voodoo curse my X-wife put on me.... But I will not rest until I find out what is going on !!!!

Anthony,

If it still messes up while you drive away test, then you definitely want to look into that 'voodoo curse by the ex-wife' possibility. As we all know, those things have NO geographical boundaries. Hehe...sorry, couldn't resist. After all, as a seasoned technician, I try to look under every rock no matter how innocent it looks.

good luck!

=gb=

Anthony Marotti · February 13th, 2005, 09:37 AM

Hello Greg :-)

Well I guess it is the Voodoo :-(

The weird thing is that the Sony works sometimes flawlessly, and all of the other cameras work flawlessly most of the times, but at times they all misbehave ????

I don't quite get it, but my efforts to isolate the problem and find repeatability have failed :-(

What scares me is when my 2 Canons screw up, because I will be using them on a corporate shoot soon and do not want faulty equipment to make my job more difficult than it needs to be. My other equipment is booked, and budget is tapped, so I have to go with this equipment package.

I am hoping that this anomaly is somehow environmentally related and that in my worst case scenario, I just have to do my captures off-site.

Thanks for the levity, it helps!!

February 9th, 2005, 07:53 AM	#16
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Mike Rehmus is of the opinion that brand media plays nicely with the same brand hardware. If you shoot mostly Panasonic tapes, get a Panasonic deck. Sony tapes, Sony deck. I agree with his advice. Sounds odd but it works. By the way, I'm thinking of moving this discussion to our Long Black Line forum since it's more to do with tape than the XL2. So if it gets moved, that's the reason. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 9th, 2005, 08:41 AM	#17
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	Hello Chris, Thanks for the feedback ! I am not sure what the topic is about anymore, but my continued testing will unfold the truth. One reason that you may want to keep this thread here, is that I am in contact with Canon Tech Support and they may have some relevant information for other XL2 owners, which I will post to this thread. Thanks Again !! __________________ AM

February 9th, 2005, 08:56 AM	#18
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Anthony, try wrapping your cameras in aluminum foil --grounded if possible-- and repeat the tests. This should help block RFI. If it works, perhaps you can then sue the broadcaster for the expense of building a Faraday cage around your house or something like that. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 9th, 2005, 09:03 AM	#19
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	Hello Ignacio, I was considering building one around my equipment, but I'm looking for a farm and will be moving soon, so I will put off enriching any attorneys at this time.... Ooops, one of my partners is an attorney, I better be careful :-) __________________ AM

February 9th, 2005, 09:12 AM	#20
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	It seems this topic is now about RFI affecting DV equipment. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 9th, 2005, 11:27 PM	#21
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	<<<-- Originally posted by Anthony Marotti : Hello Guys :-) * It appears that at 4:00 AM my cameras all work correctly, but at 6:30 AM, I get problems where the audio just stops while the video plays without dropout (the canons actually playback fine at 6:30 AM). * I have four 50,000 Watt transmission antennas about 150' from my location :-o I am betting that mid-day when I run these tests, the audio noise will be present with video dropout. I hope this is the case as it will mean that my gear is not malfunctioning, but that the high concentration of radio energy may be interfering with my gears error correction capabilities. -->>> Anthony, That is very possible. You see, in the US, AM stations must do 1 of 3 things at night to prevent interference to other stations in other markets. They must go off the air, reduce power, or go directional. Yours is a case of a clear channel (50kw) AM station switching form directional to non-directional at 6:30AM which, if you are paying attention is the current time of local sunrise. That switchover will occur at different times during the year but will be at local sunrise and sunset. That's why there are 4 towers. They are switched into a phased array at night to produce a directional signal. If you really are no more than 150 feet from the towers cranking out 50kw, it's a wonder anything electronic works in your home. That's one heck of an rf energy field your sitting in! You should install all flourescent lighting in your home because they would likey illuminate themselves and save you money on electric bills. If your theory is correct, you should have no problems with your gear after the sun goes down. Boy, is that last sentence a loaded statement or what? ;D =gb=

February 10th, 2005, 08:59 AM	#22
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	Hello Gregg Well I am back to square one :-( I have been working with the guys at Canon and we came up with that possibility together and it not only made sense, but it appeared to time out correctly. Unfortunately, last night/or I mean this morning at around 3:30 AM, my Sony wouldn't play the tapes again :-( This is weird because the morning before they played without a hitch. And it isn't just the Sony because my Canons seemed to have some playback issues too ??it is now 10:50 AM and I shot some footage on my XL1, XL2 and Sony at about 7:30 AM and guess what...... Now everything seems to work fine ????? It could be a combination of RF Interference, Tape Quality, and maybe that Voodoo curse my X-wife put on me.... But I will not rest until I find out what is going on !!!! Thanks for the continued feedback ! PS very interesting explanation of the broadcast transmission :-) __________________ AM

February 10th, 2005, 09:05 AM	#23
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> You should install all flourescent lighting in your > home because they would likey illuminate themselves > and save you money on electric bills. Cool! Wouldn't want my body exposed to that 24x7 though. And some of us make a fuss about cell phones! __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 10th, 2005, 09:47 AM	#24
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	Bizzar.... Even the tapes that gave me the worst problems are now playing/and capturing without a glitch.......... I am going Nuts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! __________________ AM

February 10th, 2005, 10:19 AM	#25
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Perhaps a lawyer from the radio station read this and they immediatley dropped the power output! Serioulsy though, remember the transmission is directional and can be affected by atmospheric conditions. It is possible that your home is not in the intended path of the transmission and, under ideal conditions RFI might be below the tolerance for your cameras. Most likely if you drive away and check all the cameras somewhere else they will ALWAYS work well. Of course if you recorded some tapes in your home then the signal on them might be permanently out of tolerance or contain drop-outs, but that's a whole other issue. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

February 10th, 2005, 01:27 PM	#26
A. J. deLange Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: McLean, VA United States Posts: 749	If the array is only 150' away he's going to be in the near field and won't see much effect from the phasing. A primitive field strength tester can be made from a loop of wire and a neon bulb. If the bulb glows there's a good chance of trouble for unprotected electronics. Checking stuff out somewhere else is a good suggestion.

February 11th, 2005, 09:44 AM	#27
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	<<<-- Originally posted by A. J. deLange : If the array is only 150' away he's going to be in the near field and won't see much effect from the phasing. A primitive field strength tester can be made from a loop of wire and a neon bulb. If the bulb glows there's a good chance of trouble for unprotected electronics. Checking stuff out somewhere else is a good suggestion. -->>> He had been reporting problems during daylight hours which is when the station would go back to an omnidirectional pattern. I used to have a 40 meter dipole stretched across the roof of my home and everytime I keyed my ham transmitter in CW mode, I was getting the 'incandecent' bulb in the hallway to glow faintly. Hehe..it scared the ***t out of my wife. Remember, this is AM broadcast we're talking and the whole tower is the antenna! No elevating the signal above the roofline with a ground plane on top of a tower like FM stations. But, it sounds like the pattern hasn't held. I also like Ignacio's suggestion of moving the equipment elsewhere to see how it behaves. Well Anthony, looks like you've got more investigating to do. But, I am convinced that you are getting hit with some type of interference. good luck, -gb-

February 11th, 2005, 09:58 AM	#28
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	Hey guys, Thanks again for the ongoing support, it is comforting, and much appreciated. I am doing the "Drive Away" test today! Thanks Again Guys !!! __________________ AM

February 13th, 2005, 07:36 AM	#29
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	Quote: It could be a combination of RF Interference, Tape Quality, and maybe that Voodoo curse my X-wife put on me.... But I will not rest until I find out what is going on !!!! Anthony, If it still messes up while you drive away test, then you definitely want to look into that 'voodoo curse by the ex-wife' possibility. As we all know, those things have NO geographical boundaries. Hehe...sorry, couldn't resist. After all, as a seasoned technician, I try to look under every rock no matter how innocent it looks. good luck! =gb=

February 13th, 2005, 09:37 AM	#30
Anthony Marotti Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 263	Hello Greg :-) Well I guess it is the Voodoo :-( The weird thing is that the Sony works sometimes flawlessly, and all of the other cameras work flawlessly most of the times, but at times they all misbehave ???? I don't quite get it, but my efforts to isolate the problem and find repeatability have failed :-( What scares me is when my 2 Canons screw up, because I will be using them on a corporate shoot soon and do not want faulty equipment to make my job more difficult than it needs to be. My other equipment is booked, and budget is tapped, so I have to go with this equipment package. I am hoping that this anomaly is somehow environmentally related and that in my worst case scenario, I just have to do my captures off-site. Thanks for the levity, it helps!! __________________ AM