XL3 will be 24x36 CMOS at DVinfo.net

Raphael Dinge · January 5th, 2005, 09:34 AM

Hi,

I'm relatively new to video, and this is my very first post, so please correct me if I say anything wrong.

I had bought some time ago a JVC consumer DV.
Having some experience in imaging, I was very disappointed of general image quality (noise, weird sharpness, color artifacts) and I also realized that video was not like photo e.g. the dof and focal "problem".
I bought the camera for fun, so this was not a very big deal. However I'm getting addicted to film making, so now I need MORE.

Then I seek the internet and meet XL2 (hello XL2), and later mini35 kit.
However mini35 is as expensive as an XL2 from what I remember, and I don't like the 'fake' way to achieve what I do not consider as an 'effect'.

There is a lot of threads on the mini35 kit to get that "photo like" picture.
Not only to have "film look", having a short dof is needed for a lot of narrative aspects, as well as having no focal multiplier can help scouting with classic SLRs.

Canon shows more and more involvement in indie film making by adding the 24p feature.
24p feature is certainly good (in fact I don't know), but first I would like to shoot a sequence as if I was holding my old EOS reflex camera (classic SLR).

As far as I did understand, dof and focal "problem" seems directly related to the size of the ccd.
It seems easier (understand : cheaper) to get higher resolution on a ccd than increasing the surface of the ccd.
This must be the same problem than CPUs : better integration -> more on a silicon plate -> cheaper

However good digital reflex sensor are as big as 24x36 at least for EOS-1DS and DCS pro. They are not ccds, but cmos.
Even with the DCS pro, Kodak, one big ccd supplier, has finally understand that they should go for bigger imagers.
And cmos is the direction to follow.
Even if Canon does not produce its ccd itself, they are producing their cmos, so they are not likely to be tied to a specific ccd supplier.
EOS-1DS is around $6000. DCS pro is around $4000.

So my questions are :
- how many of you love the long video dof in all cases ?
- how many of you would like to put *natively* their EF lenses and have exactly the same picture as with a SLR ?
- considering canon (maybe relative) involvement (understand : marketing target) in indie film making and shorts, how many of you would/will/have ask canon to increase imager size ? (but keep the number of pixels)
- what would be the additional cost for a cmos at 24x36 but in something like 1024x576 ?

Thanks,

Raphael

Benoit Lemonnier · January 5th, 2005, 11:05 AM

hello, i'm french, so maybe my english not very good.
I have just buy an xl2 two weeks ago.
I've heard about those things you said, the captors they put on some reflexcameras, but the problem is that thos captors are not done for VIDEO capturing. they are good to take ONE picture, but are not adapted to capture a picture stream as for video.
I've read that on one web site (when i did search for a good camcorder, but i don't know where exactly)
i think it it was easy to do, they should have already do that, with great captors on camcorders.

Chris Hurd · January 5th, 2005, 07:42 PM

Benoit is quite correct. The Canon CMOS chips are not optimised for video -- there's no way to clear the gates fast enough for 30fps. They can manage about 6 or 8fps as it is. Great for photo but not for video.

Robert Mann Z. · January 5th, 2005, 09:29 PM

the next mini dv sonys will be cmos based...so someone figured out how to do it...the key question now is was it done to save money on production costs or does it make for a better picture at these low resolutions....

Chris Hurd · January 5th, 2005, 11:05 PM

Oh, there's no doubt it can be done, JVC's doing a CMOS camcorder. But not all CMOS chips (nor their manufacturers) are created equal.

Robert Mann Z. · January 6th, 2005, 12:03 AM

Speak of the devil Chris...Sony just announced what i was talking about

First CMOS camcorder

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5480#au

Chris Hurd · January 6th, 2005, 03:11 AM

How about that, Robert -- wish I could recall the source for the JVC CMOS camera.

Raphael Dinge · January 6th, 2005, 07:09 AM

Sony handycam seems really promising. But by its dimensions, I don't think that the cmos will be that huge. (hey ! 2.8Mpx for $1300... I would only need 414Kpx)
Now I've heard that this is far easier to achieve big chips with cmos than ccd.
So it seems that the future could lead us to full size chips !

Remember that we are marketing targets, and technology progress are made almost of strategic marketing directions and decisions.
Suppose that the ultimate goal of a prosumer were to have a camcorder with 35mm lenses (this is my own opinion, but I don't know the job so I may be incorrect), then no doubt that this will tend to that direction, sooner or later.
By the number of people going into the direction of mini35 kit (pro or home made), Canon should see that there is a problem in the market somewhere ?

Raphael

Benoit Lemonnier · January 6th, 2005, 11:02 AM

well, of course it will be, but it goes step by step (il would be too expensive in research to make a new camcorder with all new sort of composants, it's more interesting for them to go step by step and do one enhancement by one enhencement (and sale a lot of intermediate camcorders)
i think it's not for tomorrow the camcorder with 35 mm captor, changeable processor, intern hard disk to stock internal software, with a camcorder operating system linux based, and changeable captor, expansion cards slot (to put extra input/output, or a gyroscope extend card that record the coordinates and movments of the camcorder for making cgi caracters easier in camera moving shoots, ...
that may happend a day...., you just have to wait about 100 years, so don't buy now!

Raphael Dinge · January 6th, 2005, 11:31 AM

... and in the meantime 35mm in SD resolution would be just fine imho.

Full size chip in EOS-1Ds was one major step (remember EOS-1D imager size). So this does not seems unrealistic, and does not seems so far away, isn't it ?

It is a matter of priority : what would you like to see next in XL series ?

Raphael

Bob Zimmerman · January 6th, 2005, 12:05 PM

I wonder how long before Sony puts the 24p and 16:9 on something like the PD-170? Will the Z1U have 16:9?

Barry Green · January 6th, 2005, 02:06 PM

The Z1U is 16:9, yes, as is the currently-shipping FX1.

Sony seems to have no interest in 24P unless you want to spend $35,000 for an IMX camera with a 24P "option board". So I wouldn't expect to see 24P from them anytime soon. Panasonic and JVC have both announced plans to make 24P HD cameras.

Raphael Dinge · January 7th, 2005, 07:50 AM

lol :
www.canon.com/feedback/proposal.html

January 5th, 2005, 09:34 AM	#1
Raphael Dinge Tourist Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Paris, FRANCE Posts: 4	XL3 will be 24x36 CMOS Hi, I'm relatively new to video, and this is my very first post, so please correct me if I say anything wrong. I had bought some time ago a JVC consumer DV. Having some experience in imaging, I was very disappointed of general image quality (noise, weird sharpness, color artifacts) and I also realized that video was not like photo e.g. the dof and focal "problem". I bought the camera for fun, so this was not a very big deal. However I'm getting addicted to film making, so now I need MORE. Then I seek the internet and meet XL2 (hello XL2), and later mini35 kit. However mini35 is as expensive as an XL2 from what I remember, and I don't like the 'fake' way to achieve what I do not consider as an 'effect'. There is a lot of threads on the mini35 kit to get that "photo like" picture. Not only to have "film look", having a short dof is needed for a lot of narrative aspects, as well as having no focal multiplier can help scouting with classic SLRs. Canon shows more and more involvement in indie film making by adding the 24p feature. 24p feature is certainly good (in fact I don't know), but first I would like to shoot a sequence as if I was holding my old EOS reflex camera (classic SLR). As far as I did understand, dof and focal "problem" seems directly related to the size of the ccd. It seems easier (understand : cheaper) to get higher resolution on a ccd than increasing the surface of the ccd. This must be the same problem than CPUs : better integration -> more on a silicon plate -> cheaper However good digital reflex sensor are as big as 24x36 at least for EOS-1DS and DCS pro. They are not ccds, but cmos. Even with the DCS pro, Kodak, one big ccd supplier, has finally understand that they should go for bigger imagers. And cmos is the direction to follow. Even if Canon does not produce its ccd itself, they are producing their cmos, so they are not likely to be tied to a specific ccd supplier. EOS-1DS is around $6000. DCS pro is around $4000. So my questions are : - how many of you love the long video dof in all cases ? - how many of you would like to put natively their EF lenses and have exactly the same picture as with a SLR ? - considering canon (maybe relative) involvement (understand : marketing target) in indie film making and shorts, how many of you would/will/have ask canon to increase imager size ? (but keep the number of pixels) - what would be the additional cost for a cmos at 24x36 but in something like 1024x576 ? Thanks, Raphael

January 5th, 2005, 07:42 PM	#3
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Benoit is quite correct. The Canon CMOS chips are not optimised for video -- there's no way to clear the gates fast enough for 30fps. They can manage about 6 or 8fps as it is. Great for photo but not for video. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 5th, 2005, 11:05 PM	#5
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Oh, there's no doubt it can be done, JVC's doing a CMOS camcorder. But not all CMOS chips (nor their manufacturers) are created equal. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 6th, 2005, 03:11 AM	#7
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	How about that, Robert -- wish I could recall the source for the JVC CMOS camera. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 5th, 2005, 11:05 AM	#2
Benoit Lemonnier New Boot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: caen france Posts: 9	hello, i'm french, so maybe my english not very good. I have just buy an xl2 two weeks ago. I've heard about those things you said, the captors they put on some reflexcameras, but the problem is that thos captors are not done for VIDEO capturing. they are good to take ONE picture, but are not adapted to capture a picture stream as for video. I've read that on one web site (when i did search for a good camcorder, but i don't know where exactly) i think it it was easy to do, they should have already do that, with great captors on camcorders.

January 5th, 2005, 09:29 PM	#4
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	the next mini dv sonys will be cmos based...so someone figured out how to do it...the key question now is was it done to save money on production costs or does it make for a better picture at these low resolutions....

January 6th, 2005, 12:03 AM	#6
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	Speak of the devil Chris...Sony just announced what i was talking about First CMOS camcorder http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5480#au

January 6th, 2005, 07:09 AM	#8
Raphael Dinge Tourist Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Paris, FRANCE Posts: 4	Sony handycam seems really promising. But by its dimensions, I don't think that the cmos will be that huge. (hey ! 2.8Mpx for $1300... I would only need 414Kpx) Now I've heard that this is far easier to achieve big chips with cmos than ccd. So it seems that the future could lead us to full size chips ! Remember that we are marketing targets, and technology progress are made almost of strategic marketing directions and decisions. Suppose that the ultimate goal of a prosumer were to have a camcorder with 35mm lenses (this is my own opinion, but I don't know the job so I may be incorrect), then no doubt that this will tend to that direction, sooner or later. By the number of people going into the direction of mini35 kit (pro or home made), Canon should see that there is a problem in the market somewhere ? Raphael

January 6th, 2005, 11:02 AM	#9
Benoit Lemonnier New Boot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: caen france Posts: 9	well, of course it will be, but it goes step by step (il would be too expensive in research to make a new camcorder with all new sort of composants, it's more interesting for them to go step by step and do one enhancement by one enhencement (and sale a lot of intermediate camcorders) i think it's not for tomorrow the camcorder with 35 mm captor, changeable processor, intern hard disk to stock internal software, with a camcorder operating system linux based, and changeable captor, expansion cards slot (to put extra input/output, or a gyroscope extend card that record the coordinates and movments of the camcorder for making cgi caracters easier in camera moving shoots, ... that may happend a day...., you just have to wait about 100 years, so don't buy now!

January 6th, 2005, 11:31 AM	#10
Raphael Dinge Tourist Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Paris, FRANCE Posts: 4	... and in the meantime 35mm in SD resolution would be just fine imho. Full size chip in EOS-1Ds was one major step (remember EOS-1D imager size). So this does not seems unrealistic, and does not seems so far away, isn't it ? It is a matter of priority : what would you like to see next in XL series ? Raphael

January 6th, 2005, 12:05 PM	#11
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	I wonder how long before Sony puts the 24p and 16:9 on something like the PD-170? Will the Z1U have 16:9?

January 6th, 2005, 02:06 PM	#12
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The Z1U is 16:9, yes, as is the currently-shipping FX1. Sony seems to have no interest in 24P unless you want to spend $35,000 for an IMX camera with a 24P "option board". So I wouldn't expect to see 24P from them anytime soon. Panasonic and JVC have both announced plans to make 24P HD cameras.

January 7th, 2005, 07:50 AM	#13
Raphael Dinge Tourist Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Paris, FRANCE Posts: 4	lol : www.canon.com/feedback/proposal.html