Cine settings? at DVinfo.net

Chris Mills · December 22nd, 2004, 02:59 PM

What is the Color Matrix option really doing when it is set to "Cine"?

Is this applying a log curve to the chroma and/or hue response in the same way that setting the gamma to "Cine" changes luminance from linear to log? Or is it something else?

Thanks.

Rob Lohman · December 23rd, 2004, 04:43 AM

Did you check page 68 of the (NTSC) manual:

Chapter: Using the Custom Preset
Paragraph: Gamma Curve

If you have the PAL manual look up that chapter.

Pete Bauer · December 23rd, 2004, 05:19 AM

Yeah, that graph is just "representational" and doesn't give specific values; not sure exactly what is being changed and by how much between NORMAL and CINE in the Color Matrix setting. Just looking at the graph, it appears to pull the curve a bit toward, but not all the way to, linear. (The second graph below it with the straight lines looks to be just for knee and black, not the CINE modes.)

Poorly documented. I doubt if the specific details are published -- it might require doing sample shots of a color chart in both modes and analyzing them to really understand what is being done to the color matrix.

I don't have the time or talent for this particular issue but I do hope someone does.

Chris Mills · December 23rd, 2004, 06:14 AM

Of course I read the manual.

I can not detect any appreciable difference between CINE and NORMAL for the Color Matrix. Furthermore the docs are talking about the gamma settings with that chart - not the Color Matrix.

It is a wonder as to what it actually is.

Tom Koerner · March 7th, 2005, 02:34 PM

I am begining to suspect that no one really knows what Color Matrix does beyond the vague description in the manual. I can't generally detect a difference, but I suspect it may be a result of my other settings making this one undetectable.

Rob Lohman · March 12th, 2005, 05:02 AM

The best way perhaps to get to the bottom of what it does is hook
the camera up to something that can display vector scopes and
histograms in real-time (preferably for each color channel
separately!)

Then it can be seen what happens to the signal more clearly. It
could also be done in a similar way in post, but requires much
more (paper) work.

If I had an XL2 I'd be willing to try it, but santa hasn't brought me
one yet <g>

December 22nd, 2004, 02:59 PM	#1
Chris Mills Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 77	Cine settings? What is the Color Matrix option really doing when it is set to "Cine"? Is this applying a log curve to the chroma and/or hue response in the same way that setting the gamma to "Cine" changes luminance from linear to log? Or is it something else? Thanks. __________________ Regards, Chris http://www.lizardlounge.com

December 23rd, 2004, 04:43 AM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Did you check page 68 of the (NTSC) manual: Chapter: Using the Custom Preset Paragraph: Gamma Curve If you have the PAL manual look up that chapter. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

December 23rd, 2004, 05:19 AM	#3
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Yeah, that graph is just "representational" and doesn't give specific values; not sure exactly what is being changed and by how much between NORMAL and CINE in the Color Matrix setting. Just looking at the graph, it appears to pull the curve a bit toward, but not all the way to, linear. (The second graph below it with the straight lines looks to be just for knee and black, not the CINE modes.) Poorly documented. I doubt if the specific details are published -- it might require doing sample shots of a color chart in both modes and analyzing them to really understand what is being done to the color matrix. I don't have the time or talent for this particular issue but I do hope someone does. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

December 23rd, 2004, 06:14 AM	#4
Chris Mills Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 77	Of course I read the manual. I can not detect any appreciable difference between CINE and NORMAL for the Color Matrix. Furthermore the docs are talking about the gamma settings with that chart - not the Color Matrix. It is a wonder as to what it actually is. __________________ Regards, Chris http://www.lizardlounge.com

March 7th, 2005, 02:34 PM	#5
Tom Koerner Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Athens, Ohio Posts: 40	I am begining to suspect that no one really knows what Color Matrix does beyond the vague description in the manual. I can't generally detect a difference, but I suspect it may be a result of my other settings making this one undetectable. __________________ Tom Koerner

March 12th, 2005, 05:02 AM	#6
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	The best way perhaps to get to the bottom of what it does is hook the camera up to something that can display vector scopes and histograms in real-time (preferably for each color channel separately!) Then it can be seen what happens to the signal more clearly. It could also be done in a similar way in post, but requires much more (paper) work. If I had an XL2 I'd be willing to try it, but santa hasn't brought me one yet <g> __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors