24p questions

Ash Greyson · August 21st, 2006, 10:00 AM

Pretty easy, just open it up and play =o) It will properly remove the pulldown in a 2:3 (24p normal) stream.

ash =o)

Dave Morgan · August 21st, 2006, 03:23 PM

i will be shooting a wedding with an xl2. what setting would be best? 24p 30p or 60i ??

thanks

Tim Bickford · August 21st, 2006, 09:32 PM

Dave-

I'm no expert one this... but I'll give it a try. Im not sure of your level of experience, so take this for what it;s worth.

If you use 24P or 30P you'll have to keep your pans real smooth. You should be fine if using a tripod with smooth pans. The good part is that weddings are not often full of high speed action. Well... the reception can be at times... i suppose.

If you shoot at 24P keep your shutter at 1/48. As long as your NLE can work with 24P you should be fine.

If it was me, Id shoot 16x9 at 24P. I think it looks the best. However, some people do not have 16x9 Tv's... This presents a whole other issue.

If you want to play it safe go for 60i at 1/60 shutter...

David Lach · August 22nd, 2006, 06:43 AM

Tim has it summed up, but to add a bit based on my experience, I usually shoot everything with the XL2 in 30p and whenever possible 16:9. I would shoot 24p but PPro 2.0 which I'm using still has bugs with 24p so I reserve that frame rate for personal projects where I actually have time to find work around solutions to the bugs I encounter.

I don't do weddings, but regardless my clients like this look A LOT. I always get comments on how it just looks "neat" or "less annoying than TV video". Those are all comments I get on a regular basis and even if it's just a psychological effect of me selling this option well, it keeps more of them coming back. To the point where my last client asked me on a 2nd project with him not to forget to use those "frame speed things" (actual words). It differenciates my work from all the other 4:3 60i low budget productions out there which are most of them here in Montreal.

You can even use this as a selling point if you know how to, especially for the wedding industry. Just enough technical mumbo jumbo to let them know that with you they get something unique, they get a film look (people always associate film with high quality even if we all know there's much more to it).

Not to mention that progressive scanning is such a superior format (personal opinion) to interlaced video, none of those archaic interlaced fields and artifacts. Can't wait for the day 60p will become a standard. And the XL2 is so sharp that in progressive scan it will actually allow you to zoom in by as much as 10% without noticeable resolution loss (works better with closeups). This is great to do slow crawling zooms in post on some of the footage to add production value, or just reframe a less than perfect shot. If you were to do this in 60i you'd have to deinterlace in order to avoid artifacts.

But like Tim mentioned, if you're going to shoot 24p or 30p, know the limitations, because they are not the same as 60i shooting.

Kyle Prohaska · August 22nd, 2006, 11:02 AM

I say 30p, 24p might make any fast shots very stroby. I suggest 30p because it gives a little more smoothness but keeps that cool looking Progressive look, 60i might be too video looking. If you do go with 24p or even 30p ide watch out for any fast camera movements, they could look very choppy.

-Kyle

Vipul Amin · August 23rd, 2006, 10:32 PM

Hi,

I work on PC. Haven't gotten Mac yet.
I have been shooting at 3op so far. I want to switch to 24p.

Which of the folloing softwares are good for 24p and which one are good for 30p? If I am missing any good one, shoot it.

Pinnacle Studio 10, Adobe Premier, Vegas..

Also, will pinnacle 10 catpre true 24p and/ or 30p? or it will convert it to 60p?

Thank you...

Paul Cuoco · August 25th, 2006, 11:52 AM

Can't speak to Pinacle...

Sony Vegas will handle both no problem.

Adobe Premiere Pro will also handle both. Some export issue with Pro version 1.5, version 2 was "supposed" to resolve, but I hear rumblings there are still some issues.

Avid Liquid will handle both, so will Avid Xpress and Avid Xpress Pro.

All these programs offer trials, so give 'em all a try and see which one you like the best and handles the 24P for the money.

David Lach · August 27th, 2006, 08:26 AM

You bet there are still issues with Premiere Pro 2.0 and 24p, might I even venture to say more?

What Adobe solved compared to 1.5:

-Premiere would convert standard 3:2 24p footage in a 60i timeline to true 24p by removing the pulldown frames even though it was not meant to be. This would result in de/re-interlacing with all the artifacts that come with it. This has been solved in version 2.0. You can now treat 3:2 24p footage as regular 60i footage.

What has not been solved:

Audio glitches are still there. When you export a 16:9 true 24p timeline back to tape, you will get random static noises that will render the audio track useless. This only happens for 16:9 footage. For some obscure reason, it doesn't for 4:3 footage. This was also a bug found in version 1.5. Doesn't matter much anyways, as this is now the least of your problems, read the following to understand.

24p bugs that have been introduced with version 2.0:

-It is now impossible to export 16:9 true 24p footage back to tape. When you do, you will have this odd bug where the aspect ratio jumps back and forth between 4:3 and 16:9 about 2 times a sec. You could export it using the software aspect ratio conversion option instead of hardware or use no conversion option but why would you do that, as it would prevent any future NLE to read it as native 16:9 footage.

-You cannot export a true 24p timeline to DVD. That's right, not only can you not export it to tape, but because of a bug in the Main Concept codec or its implementation in PPro 2.0 (aknowledged by Adobe), you will get an error message when you try to create a 24p DVD via the Main Concept encoder. You can still export audio and sound by changing the GOP setting (N frames) from 15 to 12 but this will speed up the image while leaving the audio unchanged and the sound and image will be completely out of sync.

By the way, I spent scores of hours doing extensive tests on these issues and still could not find a practical solution. Be it noted that those tests were performed both for 1.5 and 2.0 on 2 completely different systems, one AMD based, the other Intel. So while I can't be a 100% sure this will occur on all systems, based on those tests, chances are it most likely will.

So as a result of a (once again) [expletive]-poor job by Adobe in integrating the 24p option in PPro 2.0, I would urge you to run away from it as far as you can if you're planing on using 24p editing.

I never offer 24p to my clients because of the nightmare it is to work with in PPro 2.0, I use 30p instead with which I have not encountered problems. And I can sometimes use 24p for short projects (like a music video) where I can afford the time and hastle to work around the bugs (like exporting an uncompressed 24p file and using this to export back to tape using a friend's Vegas system).

Damian Weston · August 28th, 2006, 02:21 PM

Hello all,

First, thanks for the wonderfull resources you've brought to this site. I'm borrowing an xl2 from a friend who just upgraded, and I'm having a blast
with it.

Before he left the country, he mentioned that there is 24p and 24Pa.

Now I THINK I understand that 24p will give interlaced output. I'm pretty sure that I want 24pa.

BUT, the 1,000,000 question is : How do I know which I'm using? Is there a way to set 24pa? I don't actually have a manual, and I've read the PAL
manual for a clue since the NTSC one doesn't seem to be online, but I'm lost!

Thanks!

Kent Frost · August 28th, 2006, 03:07 PM

Here ya go. :) (Google is great.)This'll give you an idea of the differences between 24p and 24Pa. Now as far as getting to that kind of a setting on the xl2, someone else here will have to elaborate and let you know if it's even possible.

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...00/24p24pa.htm

Damian Weston · August 28th, 2006, 03:14 PM

Hey, thanks for the response! Yeah, I actually just read something similar! I'm 100% certain it's possible with the xl2.... but how to do it... I await guidance :)

Damian Weston · August 28th, 2006, 03:32 PM

EDIT:

The answer, just in case there is a newb such as I looking for it is:

->Menu
->24p Settings
->2:3:3:2

And you have 24PA!

I REALLY wish there were an NTSC manual online!

David Hurst · August 30th, 2006, 04:20 PM

I've been shooting 60i with 4:3 aspect ratio. I've been thinking of shooting 24p and go to 16:9 for a more cinematic look with my weddings. Anyone doing this? What can I expect, and are there any watch-outs I should be aware of?

Thanks,
Dave

Allen McLaughlin · August 30th, 2006, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Hurst

I've been shooting 60i with 4:3 aspect ratio. I've been thinking of shooting 24p and go to 16:9 for a more cinematic look with my weddings. Anyone doing this? What can I expect, and are there any watch-outs I should be aware of?

Thanks,
Dave

I've done a couple of weddings in 25p (PAL version) that have been well received. As long as you can edit 'prog' and the happy couple aren't likely to change their mind post-shoot, then go for it.

Michael Cassidy · August 31st, 2006, 11:39 AM

With my XL1s, I shot in frame mode, the same thing I believe, for several years. The defaut shutter speed was 50th. sec. But with the Pal XL2 defaulting to 25th. sec. I'm not comfortable with it. I was ending up shooting in TV Mode all the time, which didn't always suite me. Just my view.

Mike.

August 21st, 2006, 03:23 PM	#542
Dave Morgan Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 293	xl2 for wedding, best setting? 24p 30p 60i? i will be shooting a wedding with an xl2. what setting would be best? 24p 30p or 60i ?? thanks

August 21st, 2006, 09:32 PM	#543
Tim Bickford Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 448	Dave- I'm no expert one this... but I'll give it a try. Im not sure of your level of experience, so take this for what it;s worth. If you use 24P or 30P you'll have to keep your pans real smooth. You should be fine if using a tripod with smooth pans. The good part is that weddings are not often full of high speed action. Well... the reception can be at times... i suppose. If you shoot at 24P keep your shutter at 1/48. As long as your NLE can work with 24P you should be fine. If it was me, Id shoot 16x9 at 24P. I think it looks the best. However, some people do not have 16x9 Tv's... This presents a whole other issue. If you want to play it safe go for 60i at 1/60 shutter... __________________ Tim Bickford

August 23rd, 2006, 10:32 PM	#546
Vipul Amin New Boot Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Hanover Park, IL Posts: 22	24p, 30p and choice of softwares Hi, I work on PC. Haven't gotten Mac yet. I have been shooting at 3op so far. I want to switch to 24p. Which of the folloing softwares are good for 24p and which one are good for 30p? If I am missing any good one, shoot it. Pinnacle Studio 10, Adobe Premier, Vegas.. Also, will pinnacle 10 catpre true 24p and/ or 30p? or it will convert it to 60p? Thank you... __________________ vam

August 25th, 2006, 11:52 AM	#547
Paul Cuoco Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 93	Can't speak to Pinacle... Sony Vegas will handle both no problem. Adobe Premiere Pro will also handle both. Some export issue with Pro version 1.5, version 2 was "supposed" to resolve, but I hear rumblings there are still some issues. Avid Liquid will handle both, so will Avid Xpress and Avid Xpress Pro. All these programs offer trials, so give 'em all a try and see which one you like the best and handles the 24P for the money. __________________ To live a creative life, we must first lose our fear of being wrong. - Joseph Chilton Pearce

August 27th, 2006, 08:26 AM	#548
David Lach Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Posts: 570	You bet there are still issues with Premiere Pro 2.0 and 24p, might I even venture to say more? What Adobe solved compared to 1.5: -Premiere would convert standard 3:2 24p footage in a 60i timeline to true 24p by removing the pulldown frames even though it was not meant to be. This would result in de/re-interlacing with all the artifacts that come with it. This has been solved in version 2.0. You can now treat 3:2 24p footage as regular 60i footage. What has not been solved: Audio glitches are still there. When you export a 16:9 true 24p timeline back to tape, you will get random static noises that will render the audio track useless. This only happens for 16:9 footage. For some obscure reason, it doesn't for 4:3 footage. This was also a bug found in version 1.5. Doesn't matter much anyways, as this is now the least of your problems, read the following to understand. 24p bugs that have been introduced with version 2.0: -It is now impossible to export 16:9 true 24p footage back to tape. When you do, you will have this odd bug where the aspect ratio jumps back and forth between 4:3 and 16:9 about 2 times a sec. You could export it using the software aspect ratio conversion option instead of hardware or use no conversion option but why would you do that, as it would prevent any future NLE to read it as native 16:9 footage. -You cannot export a true 24p timeline to DVD. That's right, not only can you not export it to tape, but because of a bug in the Main Concept codec or its implementation in PPro 2.0 (aknowledged by Adobe), you will get an error message when you try to create a 24p DVD via the Main Concept encoder. You can still export audio and sound by changing the GOP setting (N frames) from 15 to 12 but this will speed up the image while leaving the audio unchanged and the sound and image will be completely out of sync. By the way, I spent scores of hours doing extensive tests on these issues and still could not find a practical solution. Be it noted that those tests were performed both for 1.5 and 2.0 on 2 completely different systems, one AMD based, the other Intel. So while I can't be a 100% sure this will occur on all systems, based on those tests, chances are it most likely will. So as a result of a (once again) [expletive]-poor job by Adobe in integrating the 24p option in PPro 2.0, I would urge you to run away from it as far as you can if you're planing on using 24p editing. I never offer 24p to my clients because of the nightmare it is to work with in PPro 2.0, I use 30p instead with which I have not encountered problems. And I can sometimes use 24p for short projects (like a music video) where I can afford the time and hastle to work around the bugs (like exporting an uncompressed 24p file and using this to export back to tape using a friend's Vegas system). Last edited by David Lach; August 27th, 2006 at 08:56 AM.

August 21st, 2006, 10:00 AM	#541
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Pretty easy, just open it up and play =o) It will properly remove the pulldown in a 2:3 (24p normal) stream. ash =o)

August 22nd, 2006, 06:43 AM	#544
David Lach Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Posts: 570	Tim has it summed up, but to add a bit based on my experience, I usually shoot everything with the XL2 in 30p and whenever possible 16:9. I would shoot 24p but PPro 2.0 which I'm using still has bugs with 24p so I reserve that frame rate for personal projects where I actually have time to find work around solutions to the bugs I encounter. I don't do weddings, but regardless my clients like this look A LOT. I always get comments on how it just looks "neat" or "less annoying than TV video". Those are all comments I get on a regular basis and even if it's just a psychological effect of me selling this option well, it keeps more of them coming back. To the point where my last client asked me on a 2nd project with him not to forget to use those "frame speed things" (actual words). It differenciates my work from all the other 4:3 60i low budget productions out there which are most of them here in Montreal. You can even use this as a selling point if you know how to, especially for the wedding industry. Just enough technical mumbo jumbo to let them know that with you they get something unique, they get a film look (people always associate film with high quality even if we all know there's much more to it). Not to mention that progressive scanning is such a superior format (personal opinion) to interlaced video, none of those archaic interlaced fields and artifacts. Can't wait for the day 60p will become a standard. And the XL2 is so sharp that in progressive scan it will actually allow you to zoom in by as much as 10% without noticeable resolution loss (works better with closeups). This is great to do slow crawling zooms in post on some of the footage to add production value, or just reframe a less than perfect shot. If you were to do this in 60i you'd have to deinterlace in order to avoid artifacts. But like Tim mentioned, if you're going to shoot 24p or 30p, know the limitations, because they are not the same as 60i shooting.

August 22nd, 2006, 11:02 AM	#545
Kyle Prohaska Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Ransomville NY Posts: 239	I say 30p, 24p might make any fast shots very stroby. I suggest 30p because it gives a little more smoothness but keeps that cool looking Progressive look, 60i might be too video looking. If you do go with 24p or even 30p ide watch out for any fast camera movements, they could look very choppy. -Kyle

August 28th, 2006, 02:21 PM	#549
Damian Weston New Boot Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, On Posts: 5	Stupid question Re: 24p & 24Pa settings? Hello all, First, thanks for the wonderfull resources you've brought to this site. I'm borrowing an xl2 from a friend who just upgraded, and I'm having a blast with it. Before he left the country, he mentioned that there is 24p and 24Pa. Now I THINK I understand that 24p will give interlaced output. I'm pretty sure that I want 24pa. BUT, the 1,000,000 question is : How do I know which I'm using? Is there a way to set 24pa? I don't actually have a manual, and I've read the PAL manual for a clue since the NTSC one doesn't seem to be online, but I'm lost! Thanks!

August 28th, 2006, 03:07 PM	#550
Kent Frost Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Springfield, Missouri Posts: 117	Here ya go. :) (Google is great.)This'll give you an idea of the differences between 24p and 24Pa. Now as far as getting to that kind of a setting on the xl2, someone else here will have to elaborate and let you know if it's even possible. https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...00/24p24pa.htm __________________ "Your world is all these elements; of light and sound, of taste, smell, and touch. Woven together in many dimensions on the fabulous loom of your brain. Your brain; the most complicated thing in the world, which you yourself grew...without even thinking about it."

August 28th, 2006, 03:14 PM	#551
Damian Weston New Boot Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, On Posts: 5	Hey, thanks for the response! Yeah, I actually just read something similar! I'm 100% certain it's possible with the xl2.... but how to do it... I await guidance :)

August 28th, 2006, 03:32 PM	#552
Damian Weston New Boot Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, On Posts: 5	EDIT: The answer, just in case there is a newb such as I looking for it is: ->Menu ->24p Settings ->2:3:3:2 And you have 24PA! I REALLY wish there were an NTSC manual online! Last edited by Damian Weston; August 29th, 2006 at 06:50 AM.

August 30th, 2006, 04:20 PM	#553
David Hurst New Boot Join Date: May 2006 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 10	Anyone Shoot 24p for Weddings? I've been shooting 60i with 4:3 aspect ratio. I've been thinking of shooting 24p and go to 16:9 for a more cinematic look with my weddings. Anyone doing this? What can I expect, and are there any watch-outs I should be aware of? Thanks, Dave

August 31st, 2006, 11:39 AM	#555
Michael Cassidy Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Tyneside U.K. Posts: 45	With my XL1s, I shot in frame mode, the same thing I believe, for several years. The defaut shutter speed was 50th. sec. But with the Pal XL2 defaulting to 25th. sec. I'm not comfortable with it. I was ending up shooting in TV Mode all the time, which didn't always suite me. Just my view. Mike.